FL/Mi DRC Meeting : Resolution

6:01

TalkLeft:

Looks like they are coming out and about to begin.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:01 TalkLeft

6:03

BTD:

I am very interested in how they justify under the rules.Chuck Todd says they are going to do the 69-59 with half votes AND an agreement that 23 add ons will go to Obama. How can that possibly be within the rules? this is just ridiculous.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:03 BTD

6:04

BTD:

I want to hear the rules based justification of this.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:04 BTD

6:06

BTD:

The Rules are the Rules, except when they are not.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:06 BTD

6:08

BTD:

How exactly can the RBC order a State Party to vote for add on superdelegates?

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:08 BTD

6:10

TalkLeft:

They are still assembling.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:10 TalkLeft

6:10

[Comment From TeresaTeresa: ]

BTD, can you explain the add ons? For Michigan?

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:10 Teresa

6:10

BTD:

Amazing discussion on NBC. Who cares about florida? Who cares about the rules? Obama's people need to keep quiet. If the NBC story become the Obama story for this, it is bad. It is all about scheming and manipulating.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:10 BTD

6:11

TalkLeft:

23 add ons to Obama? I don't believe it. Does Hillary get any?

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:11 TalkLeft

6:11

BTD:

Add ons are something that have been happening for some time. States are allowed to add on superdelelegates AFTER their contests, do not ask me why,. but they do, nor do I understand the formula. But if you win, the "add ons" are decided by the elected delegates.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:11 BTD

6:11

BTD:

2 add ons to Obama.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:11 BTD

6:12

BTD:

Michigan will get 2 add ons, Florida will het 3 or 4, I forget, and presumably they will go to Clinton. And Clinton will get hose almost certainly.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:12 BTD

6:16

TalkLeft:

Here is the MIchigan delegate selection plan. (pdf)
156 delegates total and 21 alternates

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:16 TalkLeft

6:16

TalkLeft:

Ok, call to order. Clapping.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:16 TalkLeft

6:17

TalkLeft:

Roosevelt: Members reviewed the testimony over lunch and are ready to proceed to motions regarding each challenge

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:17 TalkLeft

6:18

TalkLeft:

Members have binders with all documents. Proceeding with the debate. The challenges will be in same order as they were presented this morning.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:18 TalkLeft

6:18

TalkLeft:

After discussing Florida, they will vote on Florida before proceeding to Michigan.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:18 TalkLeft

6:19

TalkLeft:

They will limit debate to 10 minutes per motion. That is enough to hear both sides.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:19 TalkLeft

6:20

TalkLeft:

For Florida, two motions: Ausman's on reconsidering automatic sanction.
Then to application of any proposed remedy.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:20 TalkLeft

6:20

TalkLeft:

Asks for motions. Alice Huffman is up.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:20 TalkLeft

6:20

TalkLeft:

Asks to put motion on floor that we fully seat Fla. delegates. Wild cheering.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:20 TalkLeft

6:23

TalkLeft:

She speaks to the motion. The Dems from the state said they did the best they could. They had to cast the vote for the early primary to ensure there would be a paper trail for next election. They were not willing partners. We should not penalize them for something they didn't cause and couldn't prevent.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:23 TalkLeft

6:23

BTD:

The problem with Ms. Huffman's argument is the Clinton Campaign did not agree with it. This is precisely the problem I had with the Clinton campaign's approach on Florida. this will be voted dowen BECAUSE the Clinton campaign conceded the rules argument. It was a terrible mistake imo.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:23 BTD

6:24

TalkLeft:

Huffman: The voters are victims.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:24 TalkLeft

6:24

BTD:

Yes Rule 21,the argument you said was not necessary. this motion loses already. the Clinton campaign did not ARGUE for it.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:24 BTD

6:24

TalkLeft:

No, she's arguing for what Hillary wants, seating all the delegates with full votes.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:24 TalkLeft

6:24

TalkLeft:

Hillary has argued for this all along.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:24 TalkLeft

6:25

BTD:

Sure she is. but she has no rules based argument to hang her hat on. It loses.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:25 BTD

6:25

TalkLeft:

They don't have to mention the rule number. They are relying on fairness not a rule. She doesn't need a rule.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:25 TalkLeft

6:25

BTD:

Ok, watch why it is opposed.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:25 BTD

6:26

TalkLeft:

I didn't say it would win, I said it's what Hillary has argued for, regardless of whether she said a rule number or not. Hillary's other position is a fall back one that she was smart to make.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:26 TalkLeft

6:26

TalkLeft:

David McDonald opposes the motion.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:26 TalkLeft

6:27

BTD:

The problem is the Clinton campaign did not make the waiver argument. You do not understand, clinton uncdercut the argument. This motion was killed of any chance YESTERDAY, by Harold Ickes.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:27 BTD

6:27

BTD:

And David McDonald is RIGHT to vote against it based on the ARGUMENTS presented.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:27 BTD

6:28

BTD:

Florida did not qualify for the waiver if you do not challenge the 8/25 ruling. So the RIGHT vote on this motion is Oppose.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:28 BTD

6:30

BTD:

Tina Fourtnoy did a very bad job imo. she did not make a rules based argument for why Florida should have had a full vote. I believe the Clinton camp did a terrible job on the Florida issue.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:30 BTD

6:31

TalkLeft:

McDonald is an uncommitted member of the committee according to CNN.

Another member says: "Seating FL with full votes has no chance of passing this body"

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:31 TalkLeft

6:31

TalkLeft:

Fourtnoy she says she will support it anyway.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:31 TalkLeft

6:31

BTD:

McDonald is NO on full seating. the deal is half votes.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:31 BTD

6:32

BTD:

This is pretty obvious. The Nos are talking about the rules and the Clinton campaign blew this argument. totally.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:32 BTD

6:32

BTD:

The RBC is RIGHT to vote down this motion based on the case presented today.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:32 BTD

6:32

TalkLeft:

I meant uncommitted as to Hillary or Obama according to CNN. I said he opposes the full seating.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:32 TalkLeft

6:33

BTD:

McDonald is a rules stickler. Some of these people needed a rules based hook here. That is what has not been understood.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:33 BTD

6:33

TalkLeft:

BTD: They are all saying the rules don't allow it. That's why Clinton didn't make that argument, but an alternative one.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:33 TalkLeft

6:34

TalkLeft:

Fourtnoy: She may be the only one who loves this party right now.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:34 TalkLeft

6:34

BTD:

The rules do not allow it because the Clinton campaign accepted the idea that Florida did not qualify for the waiver. The Clinton campaign should vote against this motion.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:34 BTD

6:35

TalkLeft:

BTD: Are you listening to them? They don't agree with you. they say the rules don't allow it. Hillary knew that's what they would say. So she chose not to make the argument even if they are wrong. She wouldn't win with that argument..

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:35 TalkLeft

6:35

BTD:

BTW, the rules are the rules, except for NH. And Iowa and SC. I HATE that people are accepting that Florida broke the rules, Floirda DID NOT break the rules. This argument was completely bungled by the Clinton camp. Completely.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:35 BTD

6:36

TalkLeft:

I'm going back to the hearing. Another member says we have to revisit the rules... as in change them....she wants to be responsible to the voters and despite rules, the voters should count.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:36 TalkLeft

6:36

BTD:

Jeralyn, are you listening to me? The argument that the rules allow it was NEVER MADE. The argument made was to IGNORE the RULES!! Please. This motion shouldbe voted down based on the argum,ents presented.

But that is only because the Clinton campaing threw away its best argument.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:36 BTD

6:37

TalkLeft:

Voting on motion:

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:37 TalkLeft

6:37

TalkLeft:

All in favor of seating 100%: 12

The crowd cheers for these members.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:37 TalkLeft

6:38

TalkLeft:

Opposed: 15

the motion to seat all of them fails. As everyone on the planet predicted.

It was closer than I thought it would be.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:38 TalkLeft

6:39

TalkLeft:

Spectators are shouting "Denver."

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:39 TalkLeft

6:39

BTD:

Here is the charade.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:39 BTD

6:40

TalkLeft:

Move to consider any lifting of sanctions as presented by Ausman challenge.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:40 TalkLeft

6:40

BTD:

This ithe deal Ickes approved yesterday. no one fought for Florida. Except Bill Nelson.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:40 BTD

6:40

TalkLeft:

All pledged delegates be restored with 1/2 vote.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:40 TalkLeft

6:41

BTD:

+19 votes for Clinton. SDs also have 1/2 votes.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:41 BTD

6:41

TalkLeft:

Hillary fought for it. She just didn't use your argument.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:41 TalkLeft

6:42

TalkLeft:

She needs the popular vote. If this passes, she can claim it.

52.5 Hillary
33.5 Obama
6.5 Edwards

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:42 TalkLeft

6:42

BTD:

No, she did not.that was a charade. A REAL fight for Florida would have made ALL of the arguments. A REAL FIGHT for Florida would have NEVER conceded the false statement that Flrida violated the rules.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:42 BTD

6:42

TalkLeft:

Discussion on the motion:

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:42 TalkLeft

6:42

TalkLeft:

Alice Huffman: It's not what she would have wanted but we can't leave here without relief for Florida.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:42 TalkLeft

6:43

BTD:

With the SDs, Clinton gains about 23 delegates out of Florida.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:43 BTD

6:43

TalkLeft:

She didn't concede. She chose not to argue something with no chance of winning.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:43 TalkLeft

6:44

BTD:

That is called NOT fighting where I come form Jeralyn. Because guess what? she ha s no chance of winning the nomination either. Will she stop making that argument?

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:44 BTD

6:45

TalkLeft:

Again, Hillary's goal now is to lead in the popular vote. It's the only way she can convince the superdelegates who are uncommitted to go with her. She also may be able to persuade some to switch. That's her only chance now. The pledged delegate total is not the issue. Whether she gets 1/2 or all doesn't matter.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:45 TalkLeft

6:46

BTD:

And for you Clinton supporters, I want you to understnad, for me this had nothing to do with the clinton cmapaign fighting for the clinton campaign, this had to do with the clinton campaign fighting for Florida. She stopped fighting for Florida yesterday.

Jeralyn, this for me at least was NOT about Hillary, this was about fighting for Florida.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:46 BTD

6:46

TalkLeft:

Her argument to the super d's is she is the popular vote leader, the electoral map favors her and she is more electable.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:46 TalkLeft

6:46

BTD:

but I leave you all to it. Yea Hillary!! I have to step out now.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:46 BTD

6:48

TalkLeft:

I'll keep going. BTD is welcome back any time

27 votes for Ausman
It's unanimous because chair can't vote.

All the Florida delegates will be seated.

This is good for Hillary because now she can count her popular vote there.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:48 TalkLeft

6:49

TalkLeft:

Moving to Michigan:

Motion: All pledged delegates restored with 1/2 vote.

Hillary 69/
Obama 59

The michigan proposal from the state party.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:49 TalkLeft

6:50

TalkLeft:

This is what everyone said it would be yesterday.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:50 TalkLeft

6:51

TalkLeft:

Fowler: Not his first choice but the result of extensive negotiations. It is not his candidate, Hillary's first choice. But in the best interest of the party, we should support it.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:51 TalkLeft

6:51

[Comment From americanincanadaamericanincanada: ]

This is the death of the democratic party. Taking her delegates and giving them to him.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:51 americanincanada

6:51

[Comment From joanneleonjoanneleon: ]

So we just wasted our time, basically, because it was all decided yesterday

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:51 joanneleon

6:51

[Comment From LeftyFanLeftyFan: ]

Obama gets just what he wants. I'm shocked.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:51 LeftyFan

6:51

[Comment From txpolitico67txpolitico67: ]

so this whole meeting was a sham???

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:51 txpolitico67

6:52

TalkLeft:

What happens to the popular vote in Michigan? Will she get all her's and he get none, or will they give him the equivalent % of 59 delegates?

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:52 TalkLeft

6:53

TalkLeft:

member makes argument against it: It ignores the will of 600,000 voters and give four of HIllary's voter to Obama. That's democracy?

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:53 TalkLeft

6:55

TalkLeft:

Ickes: He says he is stunned that we have the gall and jutzpah to substitute our view for that of 600k voters. Was the process flawed? You bet your ass it was. Did a lot of people not vote? You bet your ass they didn't. Look at the voting stats. The US has a lowest patricipation rates in the world. That's no excuse to overturn the will of the voters.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:55 TalkLeft

6:55

TalkLeft:

Ickes: You can't take delegates and give them to another.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:55 TalkLeft

6:56

TalkLeft:

Ickes: It will take 55 delegates from uncommitted status and convert them to Obama. He will vote against it.

Party unity: Hijacking 4 delegates notwithstanding flawed aspect is not a good way to start down the path of party unity. Cheers.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:56 TalkLeft

6:57

TalkLeft:

Ickes: Ms. Clinton has instructed him to reserve her rights to take this to the credentials committee. Wild cheers of "Denver" from the spectators.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:57 TalkLeft

6:58

TalkLeft:

Obama supporter Hyne is speaking now. He's in favor. Big suprise.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:58 TalkLeft

6:58

[Comment From mogamoga: ]

Don't always love Harold Ickes; love him right now, though.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:58 moga

6:58

[Comment From donnadonna: ]

i gave a standing ovation to harold ickes in my living room.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:58 donna

6:58

[Comment From RichRich: ]

He was very impressive there.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:58 Rich

6:58

[Comment From txpolitico67txpolitico67: ]

ICKES found his voice!!!!!

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:58 txpolitico67

6:58

[Comment From Andy08Andy08: ]

That is vote stealing !!!

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:58 Andy08

6:59

BTD:

I just want to know under what freaking rule of the RBC or th eCharter they have the power to do this.

the Rules are Rules, except ewhen they are not. I would have had much more respect to NOT seating ANY delegates from Michigan.

This is a blatant violation of the RBC rules.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:59 BTD

6:59

TalkLeft:

Oh my G-d -- he's congratulating Obama for his leadership. Wild boos.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:59 TalkLeft

6:59

TalkLeft:

I'm laughing. What leadership. He obstructed a revote and fair resolution from day 1.

Saturday May 31, 2008 6:59 TalkLeft

7:00

TalkLeft:

BTD, I agree, it's a violation of hte rules. it's a mockery. In their view it's a valid compromise.

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:00 TalkLeft

7:01

[Comment From stxabuelastxabuela: ]

I'm with you BTD, 0 delegates would have been better than this farce.

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:01 stxabuela

7:03

[Comment From katiebirdkatiebird: ]

Obama is THE most short-sighted candidate I've ever seen. All this over 4 delegates with 1/2 votes? He's nuts.

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:03 katiebird

7:03

[Comment From Andy08Andy08: ]

Roosevelt is pro-Obama obviously.

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:03 Andy08

7:03

[Comment From vigkatvigkat: ]

No unity lies in this direction. This could not be more divisive.

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:03 vigkat

7:04

[Comment From Paul F. VillarrealPaul F. Villarreal: ]

This is going to solidify the fracture in the party. Awful and divisive.

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:04 Paul F. Villarreal

7:04

[Comment From CanadianDemCanadianDem: ]

yes the roolz have an obama bias....

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:04 CanadianDem

7:05

BTD:

BTW, just to get the clinton supporters angrier at me, tactiically, to reserve the Credentials Committee argument for Michigan instead of florida is just plain stupid. FLORIDA has the good argument. Michigan has no argument at all under the rules. Florida got the shaft. Michigan got the gift.

Just dumb.

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:05 BTD

7:06

TalkLeft:

Roosevelt tried to block Smith from speaking. She is a Clinton supporter. The others tell him to give her one minute. He agrees.

She cannot support the allocation of delegates.

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:06 TalkLeft

7:07

TalkLeft:

Smith: The democratic process is all about the process. In America, voters rule. I cannot support a proposal that ignores the will of 600k voters in the name of unity. We will be unified in the fall but this isn['t the way to do it. She will vote against it.

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:07 TalkLeft

7:08

TalkLeft:

Brewer, the Mich. party chair, promises to work for unity if it passes.

The vote:

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:08 TalkLeft

7:08

TalkLeft:

Reread:

All pledged restored with 1/2 vote.

allocated: Hillary 69, 34.5 votes
59 to Obama
all other unpledged delegates get 1/2 vote

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:08 TalkLeft

7:09

BTD:

Oculus is right. this was NOT a unifying exercise at all. And the thing that gets me is if you wanted to say the Rules are the Rules, then damn it, follow the freaking rules, even as you wrongly interpreted them. They KNOW this violates the rules. Better to have maintained the full stripping of Michigan's delegates than this travesty.

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:09 BTD

7:09

TalkLeft:

Vote: 19 votes in favor.
Opposed: 8

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:09 TalkLeft

7:11

BTD:

Good riddance to this Committee forever. What a joke.

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:11 BTD

7:11

[Image]

dearobama2.jpg View

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:11

7:13

TalkLeft:

They have the audacity to praise themselves for a job well done. Incredible.

No further business before the committee. Talkleft will return to regular threads and end the live blog. Thanks for joining us.

Saturday May 31, 2008 7:13 TalkLeft

7:13

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