Bob Morse Interview - Live Blog Live Blogging

Bob Morse Interview

(04/11/2008)

1:57

ABAJournal:

I want to thank everyone for signing on to our live chat with Robert Morse, director of data research for U.S. News & World Report. Bob was very kind in volunteering his time to do this, the first-ever live chat for ABAJournal.com.

Let me first note that we have had very good participation with questions sent in before the session began, so much so that I am afraid we will not be able to answer all the questions sent and allow live participation. To those who don’t get their questions answered, we apologize.

And to kick off our session, here is one of the early submissions:

From: Phil Mone Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 9:29 AM

Mr. Morse,

My question: why does your methodology value rankings by law deans and faculty (25%) more than any other data point?

It seems to me that when choosing what law school to attend, prospective law students are (or should be) most interested in what lawyers who actually hire graduating law students and work alongside them (i.e. attorneys at firms, judges who take on clerks etc) think of the schools, rather than what deans/faculty think of them.

I realize you factor in what lawyers/judges think (15%), but I can understand why the law deans/faculty rank carries so much more weight.

Thanks,

phil

(boston college law school 2007)

Friday April 11, 2008 1:57 ABAJournal

1:57

Bob Morse:

We believe the views of academic experts are very important and they are in the best position to judge the relative academic quality between law schools. If we got a higher response rate on our lawyer/judge survey we would consider increasing the weight it has in our model.

Friday April 11, 2008 1:57 Bob Morse

1:58

ABAJournal:

From: J L Pottenger Jr

Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 5:01 AM

Have you considered moving from a reputational to a data-based system for assessing the law schools' comparative standings in particular subjects or fields, such as international, tax, or clinical programs ?

Friday April 11, 2008 1:58 ABAJournal

2:00

Bob Morse:

We have not considered moving to data based rankings for those fields. Such rankings are done now in some fields using journal citation analysis

Friday April 11, 2008 2:00 Bob Morse

2:00

[Comment From Brian U of San FranciscoBrian U of San Francisco: ]

What can students and/or recent alumni do to help their school's ranking?

Friday April 11, 2008 2:00 Brian U of San Francisco

2:01

[Comment From PatrickPatrick: ]

Mr, Morse

Friday April 11, 2008 2:01 Patrick

2:02

Bob Morse:

Good question. Understand how the rankings are done. Make sure top academics at law school understand how they are done. Then they would need to decide if usnews ranking variables should be targeted for impovement.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:02 Bob Morse

2:03

[Comment From T. AndriotisT. Andriotis: ]

How will you factor in admissions programs, such as Part Time Day, which have clearly been created to circumvent the LSAT and GPA submission requirement in your ranking matrix? Many schools, such as Cardozo and Brooklyn, accept a large portion of their first year students in their part time day program. It is rather common that students apply to full time day, and are then told that they are only accepted to part time day, and that they are guaranteed a spot in full time after successful completion of their first year. This is completely different from a legitimate part time evening program, such as Georgetown or Fordham. Unless schools such as Cardozo and Brooklyn are honestly targeting members of NY's Bar and Restaurant industry in their continued use of a part time day program, it is clear that these programs are nothing more than a commonly used method of "gaming" the system.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:03 T. Andriotis

2:04	Did you use US News rankings to pick your law school? Totally Relied on Them ( 31% ) Used Them a Little Bit ( 52% ) Didn't Consider Them at All ( 17% ) Friday April 11, 2008 2:04

2:05

Bob Morse:

At this point in time we have no plans to include part-time programs. One can argue (while it may make rankings more fair) it would hurt efforts to enroll students with less than top LSATs and GPAs and other efforts to increase diversity.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:05 Bob Morse

2:05

[Comment From Jaret CohenJaret Cohen: ]

Is there a better way to represent employment statistics? A common complain amongst many schools is that the REAL starting salaries aren't anywhere close to the USNWR figures

Friday April 11, 2008 2:05 Jaret Cohen

2:07

Bob Morse:

You probably know that salaries aren't part of the rankings. Also we publishing them on a two year delayed basis. We just published 2006 grads. One could argue with recent rise in starting salaries at big firms that salaries we just published is very understated. One should look (one our web site) the proportin of those reporting salaries.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:07 Bob Morse

2:07

[Comment From Jake WalkerJake Walker: ]

Duke had a sizable drop in the rankings this year. What explains it?

Friday April 11, 2008 2:07 Jake Walker

2:07

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Can you identify which factor(s) most contributed to UC Berkeley's rise to #6? Although a 2 spot move is not dramatic, I believe this is the new movement into the top 6.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:07 Guest

2:10

Bob Morse:

Two questions of why schools rise or fall. I don't think Duke's fall from 10 to 12 is a "big" fall" It was small changes. UC-Berk's rise was because of small changes (increases) in many factors including increases in both peer scores.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:10 Bob Morse

2:11

[Comment From JohnJohn: ]

is there any praticality in ranking schools after top 14?

Friday April 11, 2008 2:11 John

2:12	What matters more, education quality or odds of getting an immediate job? Education Quality ( 38% ) Immediate Employment ( 62% ) Friday April 11, 2008 2:12

2:12

Bob Morse:

There are meaningful statistical differences between the schools that can be measured. It certainly not the case that after the top 14 "all schools are equal." The real world thinks there are real differences between schools. USNEWS is just measuring those differences.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:12 Bob Morse

2:12

[Comment From Mercer 2LMercer 2L: ]

Why are LSAT scores given so much wait in the analysis. Shouldn't real world things matter such as the ability to write, and persuade. We have a top notch legal writing program but we don't get to much love from U.S. News.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:12 Mercer 2L

2:14	What should be the major factor in ranking law schools? Bar Passage ( 29% ) Reputation ( 31% ) Diversity ( 5% ) Legal Field Employment ( 35% ) Endowment ( 0% ) Friday April 11, 2008 2:14

2:15

Bob Morse:

Law schools invented the LSAT and have made it a requirement for admission and believe it measures the likelihood (please excuse all spelling errors) of law school success. They also use it as key admit factor. It's the law schools own rating of students. We are reflecting that realtiy.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:15 Bob Morse

2:15

[Comment From SarahSarah: ]

Where does the info on student expenditures and post graduate employment come from? Do you have any way to verify the info if the schools are feeding that info to you?

Friday April 11, 2008 2:15 Sarah

2:15

[Comment From SteveSteve: ]

My question has to do with the expenditures. What qualitative value does it serve (why bother include it in the rankings) and why is the data not published along with the rankings? Thanks

Friday April 11, 2008 2:15 Steve

2:18

Bob Morse:

Expenditures. We ask law schools to give us their budget data as they report annually on the ABA Questionnaire-what they are required to report yearly. In terms of 9-month employment we ask what is reported to the ABA and then published in the ABA/LSAC guide (which can be verified.) The at graduation data can be verified, it;'s the only non_ABA stat question we have. We have felt in past that the expenditure data would be hard to understand by consumers. we will rethink that.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:18 Bob Morse

2:19

[Comment From Jaret CohenJaret Cohen: ]

Why don't you publish a "value rating" like consumer reports do?

Friday April 11, 2008 2:19 Jaret Cohen

2:21

Bob Morse:

Not sure what you by value ratings. If you means best quality buy for tuition, we should consider that. We certainly could equate quality with price.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:21 Bob Morse

2:21

[Comment From Larry the lawyerLarry the lawyer: ]

Have you ever considered going to a regional reputation rank? What does a Dean, lawyer or judge in Idaho know about the quality of a school in new york and vice versa.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:21 Larry the lawyer

2:23

Bob Morse:

U.S. News has a long-standing position. If law school deans or other organization that represents all law schools came with official categories like national and regional we would very seriously consider adopting those categoriies. We do that for our Best College rankings. But it has to come from the law schools.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:23 Bob Morse

2:23

[Comment From Victoria SuttonVictoria Sutton: ]

Texas Tech University School of Law was recently identified as one of the top five programs in the country in Law and Science. Do you think you might consider making Law and Science a new category for ranking law schools, adding to Environmental Law, Health Law, etc.?

Friday April 11, 2008 2:23 Victoria Sutton

2:25

Bob Morse:

We certainly could add a few more specialty areas to the rankings. usnews has offered, so far it has not be acted on, to meet with legal educators to discuss things like this. Which ones to add, etc. Our offer is based on premise that we assume that it meant they (deans) did NOT endorse rankings, but wanted to communicate about them.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:25 Bob Morse

2:26

[Comment From Fordham 2LFordham 2L: ]

As a follow up on the value question. I think the poster is alluding to the fact that certain schools designated as TTT (thier 3) offer abysmal job prospects along with high tuition. The majorities of graduates coming from such schools are forced into temp doc work.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:26 Fordham 2L

2:26

[Comment From Sir Topham HattSir Topham Hatt: ]

Have you ever considered having a "best for" rating - as in "best for private firm employment" - "best for clerking" - and so on? Also, perhaps reporting rates could be considered for employment/salary numbers and schools that try to play the numbers because better achievers are more likely to self-select into reporting can be punished.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:26 Sir Topham Hatt

2:28

Bob Morse:

In terms of what defines employment we are using the ABA/NALP standards which we can verify. If ABA and NALP changed standards we would 100% adopt narrower defintion of what employment neans.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:28 Bob Morse

2:28	How do you feel now about your law school choice, in light of the recent rankings? Glad I Chose Here ( 43% ) Mad I Chose Here ( 13% ) Makes No Difference ( 44% ) Friday April 11, 2008 2:28

2:28

[Comment From JeffJeff: ]

Why limit the reputation options to 5 discrete choices? Aren't there many more gradations than 5 between law schools?

Friday April 11, 2008 2:28 Jeff

2:28

[Comment From SueSue: ]

The reputation criteria seems to be based on a limited pool. Is there any way to improve the way in which that information is gathered and assessed? If the methodology can not be improved, perhaps there should be less weight on reputation as presently assessed.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:28 Sue

2:31

Bob Morse:

Reputation is not limited to 5 choices. Respondents get lists of all 190 plus schools and are asked to rate each one of a 5 point scale. We get 70% response rate among academics (a very rate for any survey). Yes ,we could improve lawyer/judge. But generally speaking the two correlate (near the same score) this arguably means they both are valid.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:31 Bob Morse

2:31

[Comment From VinnieVinnie: ]

2 things. Thing 1: Please explain a school like Pepperdine's meteoric rise from T3 school to in the 50s within a small 5 year time frame. Thing 2: No one cares how many books are in a library. Stop using that in your rankings. You'd be better off counting the number of possible wireless connections in the library.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:31 Vinnie

2:31

[Comment From PappyPappy: ]

Why did UMKC Law see a bump into top 100 in 2004, but then went back down while Mcgeorge went up to the top 100 and stayed here. I've only heard good things about UMKC Law School since 2003, but they get the shaft in the rankings.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:31 Pappy

2:35

Bob Morse:

It really difficult to answer why schools moved in short amont of time. Pepperdine has improvments (widely discussed) in employment. Maybe we need to re-think library since we have had that as a facttor since before internet. Sorry I can't answer UMKC and Mcgeorge more quickly. One thing when near the bottom of top 100 you are always on cusp of moving in and out.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:35 Bob Morse

2:36

[Comment From StatsguyStatsguy: ]

Why not measure employment placement at the best law firms (Vault/AmLaw Top 100)? You could get those numbers directly from the law firms (themselves or through their websites) and not have to rely on law schools. Others have already gathered this data in the past w/ some interesting results.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:36 Statsguy

2:38

Bob Morse:

I agree that employment at top 100 firms is important since they pay very well when law school debts are very high, but it would be a very narrow way of mearsuring quality. Some ( a federal judge) have recentluy suggested % new grads going federal clerkships as a new indicator.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:38 Bob Morse

2:39

[Comment From ChadChad: ]

I am a 3L at Mercer Law and having a hard time finding a job. I feel helpless and feel that the US News rankings have really devalued my education. What would you say to the thousands of students at low ranked schools like mine?

Friday April 11, 2008 2:39 Chad

2:39	Whose opinion of a law school matters most to you? Lawyers & Judges ( 82% ) Recent Grads ( 16% ) Your Parents ( 2% ) Friday April 11, 2008 2:39

2:41

Bob Morse:

First, I hope that the fact that you can't employment is not because of usnews. I think usnews is not leading indicator, but is reflecting the market. Meaning, if economy slows, the firms may cut back hiring and but more emphasis on students from better ranked schools. Is that usnews, or reality? I think market place reality.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:41 Bob Morse

2:41

[Comment From UnfortunateUnfortunate: ]

I do believe the US News could be a valuable tool, but currently is terribly flawed. For example, how does it make sense that judges/academics can change their views on the reputations of a school year in and year out? Reputations are developed over time. Having this as a question each year and fluctuating year in and year out (as is the case with Berkley this year) may sell magazines but can you honestly say it is an accurate way to rank law schools?

Friday April 11, 2008 2:41 Unfortunate

2:42

[Comment From PalPal: ]

There are blog reports that Berkley may have accidentally submitted incorrect "at graduation" employment stats. Can you comment on the data? Do US News typically audit the information the schools provide it?

Friday April 11, 2008 2:42 Pal

2:45

Bob Morse:

Two UC-Berk questions. There is volatility in lawyer/judge. We need study ways to imporve it. Typically there is not that much volatiltiy. I think I just saw study on TasProf blog that showed lawyer/judge volatilty very low, on average. USNEWS does not audit at grad data. Tom Bell prof at Chapman looked at 9-month data in 2008 edition and found little variance from ABA data. Law schools would never let us audit their books.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:45 Bob Morse

2:46

[Comment From GoliathGoliath: ]

Would you pay full tuition to attend a tier 2 school? The numbers in your magazine lead me to believe that Loyola had a high rate of employment at graduation and even better 9 months after. Over 60% of my class was unemployed at graduation! I am 150,000 in debt and I have no job in a recessionary economy!

Friday April 11, 2008 2:46 Goliath

2:48	Do you regret your decision to go to law school? Not at All ( 58% ) Somewhat ( 28% ) Absolutely ( 14% ) Friday April 11, 2008 2:48

2:49

Bob Morse:

I agree the issue of cost of attendance and job prospects when you on hold for 3 or 4 years going to school is a big problem. Not sure what to suggest about 3t and 4t schools. I do know that 3t and 4t grad have different job options (unless near top of class) than grads from top schools.

Should be TaxProf blog and tom bell has a blog , too

Friday April 11, 2008 2:49 Bob Morse

2:49

[Comment From WUSTL 3LWUSTL 3L: ]

My school is being very aggressive in terms of increasing the quality of our student body. Some students on internet discussion forums such as lawschooldiscussion, and autoadmit view us as trying to game the rankings. What is your view of schools trying to game the rankings? Or is there such a thing as gaming the rankings, because in reality all a school is trying to do is increase the quality of the student body.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:49 WUSTL 3L

2:53

Bob Morse:

Some schools are "gaming the rankings" in the sense they spending money to get in better LSATs and hire more and better more well known profs and with broader repuations and beefing up career offices to help with jobs. That all could help schools go up, but I think students would be helped-not hurt by those steps.

By the way these polls are interesting -Show people useare ranking alot and we under weighting bar passage.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:53 Bob Morse

2:54

[Comment From Philly JoePhilly Joe: ]

Brian Leiter wrote an open letter to you a few weeks back, which I assume you have seen. Without responding to everything, do you think his suggestions/objections have merit? Any plans to take him up on an invitation to discuss improving the rankings? He has been critical of you, but from my layman's point of view he says some things that seem sensible

Friday April 11, 2008 2:54 Philly Joe

2:56

Bob Morse:

Brian Leiter, is well know in this field and does his own U.S. and Canadian law rankings. We are going to meet and or respond to those with serious suggestions. One point. Leiter is proposing very very significant changes in our ranking methodology, data collection and data used in the rankings.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:56 Bob Morse

2:56

[Comment From Jake WalkerJake Walker: ]

Would you be willing to meet with a group of law deans to talk about how to improve the rankings if the ABA hosted such an event?

Friday April 11, 2008 2:56 Jake Walker

2:58

Bob Morse:

Yes, I appeared at American Assoc. Law Deans meeting 1/07 univited and made such and offer there. I will make now and have it on my blog, too. Yes, we are waiting for law deans to meet with us. We will not read it as an endorsement of the rankings.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:58 Bob Morse

2:59

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

What is your opinion on the Cooley rankings? I personally find the rankings to be average at best. After, i graduated from Cooley I was able to start my own solo practice and i'm doing pretty well for myself. But what are some ways you can work in some facots that are used in the cooley rankings such as diversity, e.g.(wgwag) books, tuition, and number of librarians.

Friday April 11, 2008 2:59 Guest

3:01

Bob Morse:

Cooley ranking (based on memory) taking ABA data and sorting it. USEWS is dong something different.

Friday April 11, 2008 3:01 Bob Morse

3:01

ABAJournal:

That is all the time we have. I would like to thank Bob Morse again for suggesting this chat and for his honest answers. And thanks to all of you who submitted questions. I am sorry we could not answer everything online. Your participation is most appreciated.

Friday April 11, 2008 3:01 ABAJournal

3:02

Bob Morse:

I agree thanks. I have enjoyed it and learned a lot, too.

Friday April 11, 2008 3:02 Bob Morse

3:05

Thank you for reading today.

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