Live chat on Michigan school finance reform
Friday November 30, 2012
11:54
[Comment From Meegan Holland|MLive.comMeegan Holland|MLive.com: ] 
Hi everybody! Meegan Holland here, statewide news editor for MLive.com. I'll be moderating today's chat with Jen Eyer, MLive's statewide community engagement specialist. The chat will start in a few minutes.
Friday November 30, 2012 11:54 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
11:55
Jen Eyer | MLive.com: 
Hi everyone! This is a moderated chat, which means your questions will be held for approval. We'll try to get to as many questions as we can.
Friday November 30, 2012 11:55 Jen Eyer | MLive.com
11:56
Jen Eyer | MLive.com: 
If you have just a comment rather than a question, we'll post those as we get them.
Friday November 30, 2012 11:56 Jen Eyer | MLive.com
11:56
[Comment From Tim Martin - MLiveTim Martin - MLive: ] 
This is Tim Martin from MLive. Welcome, folks
Friday November 30, 2012 11:56 Tim Martin - MLive
11:58
[Comment From Meegan Holland|MLive.comMeegan Holland|MLive.com: ] 
Joining us is Richard McLellan, whose Oxford Foundation authored proposed education reforms at the behest of Gov. Rick Snyder. McLellan was part of Gov. John Engler's kitchen cabinet and is a well-respected Lansing-based lawyer.
Friday November 30, 2012 11:58 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
11:58
[Comment From Dave Murray MLiveDave Murray MLive: ] 
Hello everyone!
Friday November 30, 2012 11:58 Dave Murray MLive
11:59
Jen Eyer | MLive.com: 
We're getting some great questions so far. Just waiting for our guests to get all logged in and ready to go.
Friday November 30, 2012 11:59 Jen Eyer | MLive.com
11:59
Richard McLellan: 
Richard McLellan has logged on.
Friday November 30, 2012 11:59 Richard McLellan
11:59
[Comment From Meegan Holland|MLive.comMeegan Holland|MLive.com: ] 
Also on the chat is John Austin, president of the Michigan State Board of Education and a Democrat.
Friday November 30, 2012 11:59 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:00
[Comment From Janet WatkinsJanet Watkins: ] 
Good day everyone.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:00 Janet Watkins
12:00
Richard McLellan: 
Good day.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:00 Richard McLellan
12:00
john austin: 
Hello
Friday November 30, 2012 12:00 john austin
12:01
Jen Eyer | MLive.com: 
Welcome Richard and John, thanks for joining us!
Friday November 30, 2012 12:01 Jen Eyer | MLive.com
12:01
[Comment From Tim Martin - MLiveTim Martin - MLive: ] 
For Richard: Why was this rewrite of school finance law proposed? Why is it needed?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:01 Tim Martin - MLive
12:01
[Comment From Jan EllisJan Ellis: ] 
Is there an audio component to this?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:01 Jan Ellis
12:02
Jen Eyer | MLive.com: 
Jan: No, there is not an audio component to this. It's a text-only chat.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:02 Jen Eyer | MLive.com
12:02
[Comment From MichiganMan21MichiganMan21: ] 
With the advent of modern technology (laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc.), what is Michigan doing to keep up with technology and education trends?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:02 MichiganMan21
12:02
Richard McLellan: 
Why are we proposing this? I was asked by the Governor to help draft his annual school finance proposal as part of his budget. In summary here is what we are trying to do:
o Fundamentally: make sure our $14 billion annual investment in education produces citizens that can thrive in a new economy for Michigan.
o Primary objective: Career ready students.
o Use technology to drive more and better student choices: “any time, any place, any way, any pace” learning.
o Create processes to allow the use of individual learning styles through improved use of technology. Includes on-line learning, computer adaptive testing.
o in all public schools Michigan that can improve the use of technology Move from school system based on 19th century agrarian society calendar and an early 20th century industrial factory model to a 21st century global information age system of schools.
o Allow students early access to college level courses and career opportunities: Dual enrollment in community colleges, robust online opportunities, and scholarships for early high school completion.
o Give taxpayers more value for their taxes. Move to a performance based funding approach, not just payment for having children show up at school.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:02 Richard McLellan
12:04
Jen Eyer | MLive.com: 
MichiganMan, we'll get to that question in a bit.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:04 Jen Eyer | MLive.com
12:04
Jen Eyer | MLive.com: 
John is responding to Richard right now.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:04 Jen Eyer | MLive.com
12:04
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
Glad to see Dave Murray on the chat. Dave was our longtime education reporter and now is a community engagement specialist for MLive and the Grand Rapids Press. Welcome Dave!
Friday November 30, 2012 12:04 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:05
[Comment From Tim Martin - MLiveTim Martin - MLive: ] 
John: What are your general thoughts on the Oxford Foundation proposal to date?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:05 Tim Martin - MLive
12:05
[Comment From JrwquattroJrwquattro: ] 
Mr. McClennan - how do these changes being proposed improve the quality of education for families that are unable to overcome the barriers to making a "choice" for their children's education? Barriers include POVERTY, transportation, ESL, homelessness, single or no parent involvement. When we divide systems and take resources out of public schools it is the families that do not have access to "choice" that suffer most. Is it not our responsibility to insure we provide ALL children with the best possible education? How can we take over a school that does not meet AYP standards, hand it to a private operator with limited transparency, take full foundational funding (plus whatever grant funds) and then exempt these schools from future testing all while we want to financially penalize schools that are mandated to test according to state law for any student not meeting AYP?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:05 Jrwquattro
12:06
john austin: 
We definitely need to improve college and career readiness, help students move at their own pace, and figure out how we fund schools and students to increase performance and better learning. the challenge with what's been proposed to date is a) if we are changing funding while opening up a host of new schools, unlimited on line learning vendors and for profit vendors --we might get a lot of "bad" new choices that don't improve learning and may be worse education options. and b) we could defund existing schools that are already struggling to give a quality education
Friday November 30, 2012 12:06 john austin
12:07
[Comment From Dave Murray MLiveDave Murray MLive: ] 
Thank you, Jen, and I'm glad we have Mr. McLellan and Mr. Austin here, two very well-respected people in Lansing.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:07 Dave Murray MLive
12:08
[Comment From Tim JonesTim Jones: ] 
With this new education finance reform, how will teachers specifically be effected? Also, I am a masters student at Wayne, I will be moving into the job force in the next year, will I have a job with a decent pay?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:08 Tim Jones
12:08
Richard McLellan: 
Responding to Jrwquattro: We have focused on the barriers that exist today and could be exacerbated by our proposals. The hope is that increased technology, including computer assisted learning, more robust online learning opportunities for rural students, and other techniques can help. But these are serious issues facing public edcuation.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:08 Richard McLellan
12:09
[Comment From Joe J-Conservative VoterJoe J-Conservative Voter: ] 
Funding is based on academic performance. Traditional public schools cannot reject students based on average academic scores. At the same time, HB 5923 permits "globally competitive charter schools" to select the only the best student and reject others. In a competition for dollars (zero sum game), how can the public schools win against cherry-picking charter schools? I have no problem with charter schools, I have a problem with an unfair competition for limited resources.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:09 Joe J-Conservative Voter
12:09
john austin: 
re Jr quatto-- if what is being proposed is de facto vouchers, with students shopping for pieces of education--who is it helping, not all parents and families are able shop, to provide transportation to new choices, -- so if we are making a "market" for education--we have to have people be able to actually make the choice--lots will be left behind and we will be helping the most advantaged do better

Plus the proposal lets districts NOT accept students--that is not choice!
Friday November 30, 2012 12:09 john austin
12:09
[Comment From Jarrett SkorupJarrett Skorup: ] 
Mr. Austin has been saying that the proposal is a "voucher system" that would be "absolutely destructive." Mr. Austin is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. Brookings has produced a lot of research on actual voucher systems - and almost all of it is positive: http://www.brookings.edu/research/topics/school-choice#/?tab=1
Friday November 30, 2012 12:09 Jarrett Skorup
12:11
john austin: 
Re Tim Jones---i got an email from a great teacher saying --it sure is hard to focus on looking ahead and doing better when we feel like the rug is about to be pulled out from under us...that is a big problem we are demoralizing the very people we need to improve schools, with the prospect of less funding for their schools as people pursue unproven, perhaps poor quality "vendors" of learning taking their money....
Friday November 30, 2012 12:11 john austin
12:11
[Comment From StephenStephen: ] 
For John Austin: Why do you oppose more choices for our children's education?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:11 Stephen
12:12
Richard McLellan: 
Response to John Austin: I disagree with your assertion "if we are changing funding while opening up a host of new schools, unlimited on line learning vendors and for profit vendors --we might get a lot of "bad" new choices that don't improve learning and may be worse education options."

We are not allowing an unlimited online learning vendors. The job of curating online resources will continue to be a critical responsibility of public school officials, in the same way school officials select textbooks and teachers.

Keep out "bad" operators, teachers, etc. is a fundamental part of improving quality.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:12 Richard McLellan
12:12
[Comment From Stephen DadelusStephen Dadelus: ] 
Mr, Austin, Why do Michigan Democrats appear opposed to reform and vigorous efforts to improve our children outcomes while the national Democratic party line seems to embrace reform. Michigan seems out of alignment with the rest of nation, why?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:12 Stephen Dadelus
12:13
[Comment From Dave Murray MLiveDave Murray MLive: ] 
Question for Mr. McLellan -- Does the draft bill do anything to close the gap between the extreme high-spenders like Bloomfield Hills and the districts at the base foundation grant?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:13 Dave Murray MLive
12:13
[Comment From Rod RockRod Rock: ] 
It seems most fair and expedient to allow for existing structures of public schools and community colleges to partner together to allow equitable access to all students in Michigan. Why not support such an approach?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:13 Rod Rock
12:14
[Comment From Mary ValentineMary Valentine: ] 
Jarrett, positive for who? The ones who are left behind in failing schools with no opportunity for choice?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:14 Mary Valentine
12:14
Richard McLellan: 
You are correct, the proposal does not revisit or change what is know as Proposal A. It was not part of our charge.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:14 Richard McLellan
12:14
[Comment From tiggs1tiggs1: ] 
At a time when all the legislators and the governor endorses "consolidating" all of our Smaller public schools as a cost cutting measure, how can you justify opening so many TINY little Charter schools all over the state? Isn't that counter productive to the State of Michigans overall policy?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:14 tiggs1
12:14
john austin: 
I support more choices for our kids education! My own kids are in new and great schools that have been created as better options within the public school context...we don't need more choices if they could be run by for-profit operators, that don't deliver good learning. Backers of these ideas have been unwilling to limit the new schools created to make sure we DONT let operators with poor records of educating kids -- open more schools....the last thing we need is more bad schools taking public money. We have enough schools we are trying to fix already.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:14 john austin
12:14
[Comment From Gary NaeyaertGary Naeyaert: ] 
The use of the word "voucher" is meant to incite folks and bring up previous attempts to use tax dollars for private schools -- which were defeated by voters and isn't the case here, and I suspect Mr. Austin knows that. At the same time, since Proposal A we've determined that state funding will follow students to the public school of their choice. That's all this proposed school aid re-write will accomplish.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:14 Gary Naeyaert
12:15
[Comment From RFRF: ] 
If a student is given a menu of choices...a "choose your own adventure" in education as it were... Who will monitor that they are actually progressing? It may encourage the current "I was home schooled" idea, where really nothing happened at the home, and now the student must be remediated (on our dime btw).
Friday November 30, 2012 12:15 RF
12:15
[Comment From Mary ValentineMary Valentine: ] 
Stephen, that is because the national Democrats are being influenced by people who don't know anything about education.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:15 Mary Valentine
12:15
[Comment From Stephen DadelusStephen Dadelus: ] 
Mr. McCllan, Thank you for your leadership. As a former teacher, I believe the status quo only limits teachers. To curate a respectable profession teachers should embrace differentiating performance. I don't want to be treated like a widgit. Some of my colleagues are pathetic, low lifes that need to be removed from the lives of students.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:15 Stephen Dadelus
12:16
[Comment From Paula LancasterPaula Lancaster: ] 
Richard McLellen said, "The job of curating online resources will continue to be a critical responsibility of public school officials, in the same way school officials select textbooks and teachers." Yet, you you assert that all that occurs under those current administrators is children just showing up. This argument doesn't make sense.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:16 Paula Lancaster
12:16
[Comment From Gary NaeyaertGary Naeyaert: ] 
Responding to Joe J-Conservative Voter: There are many "selective enrollment" public schools within the Detroit Public Schools (Cass Tech, Renaissance, Bates Elementary, etc). Should these be abolished? Also, charter public schools are public.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:16 Gary Naeyaert
12:16
john austin: 
I am absolutely committed to reform, and have been: high standards, strong accountability..new school models, teacher tenure reform, and i am pro-charter and pro-choice...but where we need new choices because schools are failing, NOT new schools everywhere in the state with no quality control....that sap resources from existing public schools.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:16 john austin
12:17
Richard McLellan: 
Response to Red Rock: Read the details of the proposal re public schools and college partnering. This is one of the most active areas of education change: dual enrollment, middle colleges, online access to college credits. Their are barriers and the Governor wants a "seamless transition" between high school and college.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:17 Richard McLellan
12:19
john austin: 
I ask Richard re above commitment to quality--why have you and backers of new choice not been willing to have quality standards for new school operators?

Last year when we lifted the cap the legislature resisted any quality standards for new schools---the EAA law sought to eliminate its schools from testing and accountability like other schools (until we got that changed)--hence we already have a lot of new schools and charters, many of which don't deliver learning and outcomes-----and you are proposing that authourizers like Bay Mills should open more
Friday November 30, 2012 12:19 john austin
12:19
[Comment From Dan QuisenberryDan Quisenberry: ] 
Question to John Austin, your concerns don't seem to reconcile with the high performance we see in higher ed, where Michigan has a very diverse variety of institutions, opportunities, unlimited on-line, for and not for profit providers, even faith based education instruction and it is the model for the world. Why won't the same approach work in K-12?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:19 Dan Quisenberry
12:19
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
Welcome Dan Quisenberry. Dan is the president of the Michigan Association of Public School Academies, and wrote a guest column on education reform this week that appeared on MLive: http://www.mlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2012/11/guest_column_quality_school_ch.html
Friday November 30, 2012 12:19 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:19
[Comment From Trish BakerTrish Baker: ] 
To go back to the question raised by Jrwquattro how do these changes being proposed improve the quality of education for families that are unable to overcome the barriers to making a "choice" for their children's education? Barriers include POVERTY, transportation, ESL, homelessness, single or no parent involvement. When we divide systems and take resources out of public schools it is the families that do not have access to "choice" that suffer most
Friday November 30, 2012 12:19 Trish Baker
12:19
[Comment From TonyTony: ] 
John Austin believes in limiting school choice but these schools only open if parents want them. Why are you better at knowing which schools parents should send their kids than those parents?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:19 Tony
12:20
[Comment From Rod RockRod Rock: ] 
What does the term "reform" mean? It doesn't seem to me that we are reforming anything, at the national or state levels, other than governance. Real reform would address the ways in which children experience schooling and it would be inclusive of all children in all schools. We cannot selectively choose who gets reformed and who does not.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:20 Rod Rock
12:21
[Comment From Mary ValentineMary Valentine: ] 
Gary, we do not have schools with "selective enrollment" in my community, yet the for-profit charters find ways to keep the poorest students out of their schools. That is the problem. Choice may be good, but it is not a solution to anything. Providing good schools to all of our students -- that meet their needs -- will improve education, particularly in areas that are struggling the most -- high poverty and defacto segregation.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:21 Mary Valentine
12:21
[Comment From Joe J-Conservative VoterJoe J-Conservative Voter: ] 
Responding to Naeyart: No, don't abolish, but aren't they working under the current structure. We have the AI in Bloomfield Hills, but the funding stays in the participating districts. You want to go to a 600 student high school in an average district and be able to open a 300 seat selective charter school next door and take only the best of the 600 students and then punish the traditional public school for poor performance. I'm conservative, but that's not fair. Why not stick to the current structure that requires charters to take anyone- traditional public schools have to. Level playing field.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:21 Joe J-Conservative Voter
12:22
john austin: 
Hi Dan-- you know i am pro-charters and choice IF they are done well , and even new business and speciality schools IF they are going to deliver better learning outcomes -- not worse. Higher ed is a great analogy---we just saw a huge problem with pell grant expansion and vets having a bigger GI bill-- they were marketed to by a bunch of pro-profit vendors of education-- who took their money and did not deliver learning and credentials. We can't afford to repeat that mistake with K-12! We do not need more bad school operators or unlimited on-line school vendors unless we make sure they deliver better education.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:22 john austin
12:22
[Comment From Tim Martin - MLiveTim Martin - MLive: ] 
How are the choice options outlined in this proposal different from what Michigan now has with the “schools of choice” program?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:22 Tim Martin - MLive
12:22
Richard McLellan: 
Response to John Austin: the teacher worring about the "prospect of less funding for their schools as people pursue unproven, perhaps poor quality "vendors" of learning...." reflects the anxiety of many teachers and administrators about any change. But the Governor made it clear he is focused on improving quality of education. Michigan does not really measure quality in funding schools today - we just pay for "seat time" -- his approach is very much focused on moving to a performance based funding model.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:22 Richard McLellan
12:23
[Comment From Mary ValentineMary Valentine: ] 
Mr. Austin was clear that he is not against choice. He is probably against using choice as a solution because that has been ineffective and destroys the neighborhood schools that have access to all students.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:23 Mary Valentine
12:23
[Comment From RFRF: ] 
For profit=maximizing profit. Anyone ever look at a product and notice that "it's just not made like it used to be"? This is because corporations are minimizing input costs by cutting costs on production, labor etc... Is this really something we would like them to do with our children? Corporations are what drives our economy because they provide jobs, wealth, and products. A child is not a product that you can cheapen the inputs, in order to ensure the corporation "maximizes profits".
Friday November 30, 2012 12:23 RF
12:23
[Comment From Craig ThielCraig Thiel: ] 
I know the Foundation was directed to focus on school operating funding stay out of the morass that is school capital financing. However, changes to the number of choices available (and therefore participants in choice) will have noticeable effects on school financing issues at the local level. Recall, all funding for school facilities comes from local bonds. Specifically, will local voters elect to pass capital millages if facilities (buildings, technology, etc.) are being used by students from other districts (that are prevented from bringing their "capital" dollars with them)? This is an issue today, but has the potential to become more pronounced with expanded choice. As we know, the state has made no effort to equalize capital spending across schools, but it has placed a premium on doing so with operating funding (foundation grant).
Friday November 30, 2012 12:23 Craig Thiel
12:23
[Comment From tiggs1tiggs1: ] 
Mr, Austin: We are all for "More choices for our children. The question is AT WHAT PRICE. Opening tiny little Charter Schools funnels way too much money from the Public School system and creats an even larger problem. If the policy is to "Consolidate" existing Schools to save money, then we shouldn't be creating even smaller Schools because of the added expense.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:23 tiggs1
12:23
[Comment From Rod RockRod Rock: ] 
By "experience schooling" I don't just mean online or in specialized schools. I mean in terms of how we assess and engage students. Interdisciplinary, project based, multiple intelligences, ....
Friday November 30, 2012 12:23 Rod Rock
12:24
[Comment From LfarahLfarah: ] 
I am a parent with children in the Bloomfield Hills district, I am VERY happy with my daughters' education. Is the state even looking at all of the high performing districts (there are many in our area - Troy, Rochester, Birmingham, Novi-Canton, Walled Lake, etc. and that is just in SE Michigan) to see what they are doing right and what can be done to replicate their successes??
Friday November 30, 2012 12:24 Lfarah
12:24
[Comment From TunefulTuneful: ] 
Instead of recreating the wheel over and over again, why is it that the reasons children are not taking in education are not being addressed. If you have a child that lives in poverty (and there are so many in MI), that child will be far less interested in learning when he doesn't know where is next meal is coming from or what he will deal with when he gets home if he has a home. No matter what kind of fabulous bottled water you lead a horse to you cannot make him drink. The same holds true for fabulous education choices and children. You cannot MAKE a child learn. Why is it that the societal ills that cause education problems are not being addressed? In my opinion MI has great public schools. It is not a problem with the the schools.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:24 Tuneful
12:24
[Comment From Peter RuddellPeter Ruddell: ] 
re: questions about poverty, etc. The research is overwhelming clear that "summer loss" or "summer regression" affects the economically disadvantaged at a fair greater rate. That is why the Oxford proposal includes an incentive for schools to operate a 180-day school year with smaller breaks between instruction. The research is clear this will help the economically disadvantaged.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:24 Peter Ruddell
12:25
[Comment From Rod RockRod Rock: ] 
I am a superintendent and I am not adverse or opposed to change. I am working to change the school I serve and it seems that the writers of this proposal, along with the governor, assume that we are not doing good things. That is simply untrue. Why not consider the changes that are in motion?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:25 Rod Rock
12:25
[Comment From Stephen DadelusStephen Dadelus: ] 
Re. Mr. Austin's comments to Dan Q.... Mr. Austin, pls. use the same vigor for quality in the charter sector in the traditional sector. There are far more low performing traditional schools than low performing charter schools.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:25 Stephen Dadelus
12:26
Richard McLellan: 
Response to Joe J-Conservative: You are wrong to say " Traditional public schools cannot reject students based on average academic scores." In large districts -- say, Detroit, -- there are selective schools where only students that pass a test are eligible. As Michigan moves to a system of schools, rather than rigid geopgraphy-based school systems, there need to be a new approach to selective schools that meet the unique skills and interests of students. One size fits all does not work for all chools in the 21st century.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:26 Richard McLellan
12:26
john austin: 
This is a big change from current school choice a) unbundling the funding so kids shop for education, at all sorts of places-- on-line, next county over, etc....this could be good if the choices they make are HIGH-QUALITY and improve learning and outcomes-- but there are no guarentees that will happen with quality control on all providers, and B) if kids take their dollars and shop for other stuff, what happens to the existing neighborhood school...how to they pay for counselors, band, arts, sports, student newspaper...all the things we want our schools to provide...answer they can't, and they can't keep quality teachers either to improve learning for the kids "left" so the impacts on the existing schools are huge and HAVE to be addressed in any big school financing change as is proposed.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:26 john austin
12:27
[Comment From Joshua RaymondJoshua Raymond: ] 
Will the performance-based funding be based primarily on proficiency or academic growth? Will performance statistics from discrete populations be public, such as low-income, racial minority, gifted, or special education students?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:27 Joshua Raymond
12:28
Jen Eyer | MLive.com: 
A reminder that we are trying to get to all the questions. As we choose questions, we're looking for ones that have similar themes, while also aiming to cover as broad a range as possible.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:28 Jen Eyer | MLive.com
12:29
Richard McLellan: 
Response to Jarrett Skorup: Mr. Austin has been saying that the proposal is a "voucher system" that would be "absolutely destructive."

Response: Austin's raising the "V" word is a diversion. Vouchers for funding private schools is banned in Michigan's constittuion. Do not link vouchers and student choice wtihin an entirely public (i.e., government) school structure.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:29 Richard McLellan
12:29
[Comment From Trish BakerTrish Baker: ] 
To Dan: Your question presumes and equality (and quality) of services offered by those institutions. Our public school system (for right or wrong) is about ensuring a quality K-12 educational opportunity for all - unfortunately, that, sometimes results in lowest common denominator thinking. That is what has happened in our public schools. I love the idea of choice, but for all of our students - not just those who have parents or guardians who are savvy enough or wealthy enough to get their child into the right school
Friday November 30, 2012 12:29 Trish Baker
12:29
[Comment From Peter RuddellPeter Ruddell: ] 
Part 2 re: poverty: The economically disadvantaged move among school districts at a greater rate than other populations, the Oxford proposals allows funding to follow the pupil the district actually educating the student. Another improvement for the economically disadvantaged.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:29 Peter Ruddell
12:30
[Comment From Steven Norton - MIPFSSteven Norton - MIPFS: ] 
Mr. McLellan - your proposal sounds like it depends very heavily on technology. In fact, the model the Governor espouses would be difficult to implement without heavily reliance on online learning. But how much experience do we have with that, especially for K-12 education? Does technology really teach the kind of thinking, problem-solving and intellectual skills we need in this new economy?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:30 Steven Norton - MIPFS
12:30
john austin: 
Re performance based funding-- we should find ways to base funding on performance-- but the performance we want to incent is: are kids ready to learn by Kindergarten? are they making academic progress and growth? are they graduating from high school with college and career-ready skills? that is the performance we want to incent and measure. so we should ask and fund schools to deliver this quality--not open up funding to any and all operators of on-line and new schools who aren't willing to commit to performance. If i read the legislation right---(which is hard 'cause it is so LONG, Richard please write a summary that tells us what is in here really) It says we will pay on-line schools for performance if they finish the sylabus. That is not performance on learning and outcomes. We need to get to the growth model now.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:30 john austin
12:31
Richard McLellan: 
Question: If a student is given a menu of choices...a "choose your own adventure" in education as it were... Who will monitor that they are actually progressing?

Answer: Good question. choose your own is not unlimited; school officials control what is available. Assesssment, test, curriculum requirements all have to be in effect to make the "unbundling" approach work.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:31 Richard McLellan
12:31
[Comment From DebbieDebbie: ] 
Has anyone given any thought to slowing down this process to give public schools time to see the improvements from the constant changes and realignments that we have put into place in the last five years? New cut scores, new tenure laws, much more rigorous curriculum, exploding technology opportunities, virtual learning, it's overwhelming. Schools are taking up the challenge, but Rome wasn't built in a day. Real change needs the time to close the loop and gauge the effectiveness of the changes. We seem to be on a runaway train of change for change's sake. My fear is that we will have a generation of children that get lost in this race to make radical change, without taking the time to process the effect of what we are already doing.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:31 Debbie
12:32
[Comment From Mary ValentineMary Valentine: ] 
Charter schools that exist for the purpose of making profit don't spend their money on proven educational things -- such as libraries. The for-profit school near me won't provide a library because they have to make their $1.5 million profit Many of us are appalled by that.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:32 Mary Valentine
12:32
[Comment From Joan JuzwiakJoan Juzwiak: ] 
How will the system pay for all the detailed data collection and ongoing analysis that the features of this proposal will require? It sounds like a data monster.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:32 Joan Juzwiak
12:32
[Comment From Gary NaeyaertGary Naeyaert: ] 
Responding to Joe J: 100% of current charters are open enrollment and must take every applicant. A small number of traditional public schools are NOT "open enrollment" (the examples cited above). HB 5923 would allow for some selective enrollment charters, just like the ones in DPS. There would be very few "niche" schools under this bill -- which would create the level playing field you describe.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:32 Gary Naeyaert
12:32
[Comment From Dan QuisenberryDan Quisenberry: ] 
John, the example of the Pell Grant problem still ignores the over whelming evidence that the higher ed "system", market based, complete choice, etc provides unmatched quality in the world. We always need to be aware of poor quality issues but isn't the model and structures still something to be used as we look to overcome the huge performance problems in K-12 and the dramatic outcome disparities in quality in K-12?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:32 Dan Quisenberry
12:32
Richard McLellan: 
Response to Stephen Dadelus: Thank you.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:32 Richard McLellan
12:32
[Comment From MariaMaria: ] 
I believe it is a leap, Mr McLellan to assume that it's teacher and administrators anxiety that there "may" be vendors of poor quality. First of all, that should be your primary anxiety, that your product isn't up to par, and it's also the parents and it will definitely be the child's anxiety when they are stuck with low quality vendors.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:32 Maria
12:33
[Comment From RFRF: ] 
Actually Stephen, this might be in part that there are more/larger school districts than charter. Also, look in Detroit and Flint, there are numerous failing charters... What is worse, they are being allowed to expel students, and then send them to a "traditional" public school, without the same standards or recourse that the tradtional schools are required to follow.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:33 RF
12:33
[Comment From Mary ValentineMary Valentine: ] 
Incentive-based learning is nothing more than funding wealthy districts, where students test well, and de-funding schools with many students of poverty, who don't test well.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:33 Mary Valentine
12:33
[Comment From tiggs1tiggs1: ] 
The comment about how well the children in Bloomfield Schools are doing should not be ignored. Bloomfield Hills schools receives a much larger per pupil funding than most of the other school Districts in the state. More money equals more success. Charter Schools Funneling off money from the education pot makes all other schools less efficient.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:33 tiggs1
12:33
[Comment From Trish BakerTrish Baker: ] 
Stephen, I don't want to speak for Mr. McLellan, but technology NEVER does the teaching. It should always BE teachers who teach -they just may have to learn to do it differently!
Friday November 30, 2012 12:33 Trish Baker
12:33
[Comment From Mary ValentineMary Valentine: ] 
Those in poverty need stability, not constantly moving from school to school. That is ridiculously counterproductive.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:33 Mary Valentine
12:33
[Comment From Robert LRobert L: ] 
I'm a school board trustee (over 10 years) in a high performing system. Why has NO ONE come to our schools - or the many high performing schools in the state - to learn about and disseminate they kinds of best practices we have developed. In fact, why rush to overturn a function system that has JUST BEEN GIVEN a completely new tool box of operational changes (through last years legislative changes- tenure, contracts, evaluation, etc.) that are just now being implemented?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:33 Robert L
12:33
[Comment From TonyTony: ] 
John, why do YOU get to determine what is "high quality" and not the parents? They know more about their family situation than bureaucrats in Lansing.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:33 Tony
12:34
[Comment From JrwquattroJrwquattro: ] 
in "paying for performance" are we not just rewarding those that have the family support structure and resources while penalizing those that struggle to meet AYP based on socio-economic reasons?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:34 Jrwquattro
12:34
[Comment From timtim: ] 
Why all the focus on a small percentage of new options-- when it is well documented that many traditional-- and charters are not preparing out children today-- but, they keep on operating. Where is the quality in that?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:34 tim
12:34
[Comment From Billie WimmerBillie Wimmer: ] 
Improving education is huge and necessary. It seems that those who defend the status quo are so overwhelmed that they choose to do nothing.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:34 Billie Wimmer
12:34
john austin: 
Re Steve Norton-- the truth is we have a lot of people and companies in the on-line learning business, who are wanting states like Michigan to change their laws to let them sell their wares. There certainly is a growing role for on-line teaching and learning, best in a blended learning mode--where teachers guide students. We don't know yet how effective total on-line schools are. Do they teach the content well? That is why we sought to limit their scope last year--til we know more..
Anecdotaly, do we want our kids learning everything on-line? What about learning to work with each other, getting mentored by teachers, working together in the peer counseling group, playing sports and doing orchestra..Aren't those things we ask our schools to do? They won't if all the money is going to on-line learning providers.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:34 john austin
12:35
[Comment From Ed ScottEd Scott: ] 
John Austin: As a member of the State Board of Education, you should be able to read a piece of legislation, especially one as important as the State School Aid Act. My question is whether you are this passionate against all for-profit contractors in public schools. Haven't textbook companies and curriculum consultants been used for decades? Who controls those for profit entities? The real answer is the local schools who choose to contract with them. Nothing is different under this proposal.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:35 Ed Scott
12:35
[Comment From Stephen DadelusStephen Dadelus: ] 
As a young teacher, perhaps the funniest part of this whole conversation among adults is the strong probability that students will end up DEMANDING that their learning occurs online or in a blended environment in addition to having a multitude of choices where they get their content... this shift is going to happen regardless, adults can support it or work to keep the status quo.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:35 Stephen Dadelus
12:36
Richard McLellan: 
Response to Joan:
How will the system pay for all the detailed data collection and ongoing analysis that the features of this proposal will require? It sounds like a data monster.

You have identified one of the great issues in implementation. Michigan already spends millions on testing and data collection (and much of the data is not available to parents easily). the "system" does not pay for the data -- the taxpayers do. The implementation of the Common Core Curriculm, new testing system, teacher and student assessment, computer assisted tested all cost money. This will take much effort.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:36 Richard McLellan
12:36
[Comment From TunefulTuneful: ] 
Regarding online learning - for young children a huge part of learning is face to face interaction with caring adults and peers. Young children do not have the self discipline to make themselves do what it takes to achieve in an online situation. Also, a large part of our societal ills have to do with children being isolated from others by screen time. It seems to me that online learning will exacerbate this problem.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:36 Tuneful
12:36
[Comment From Mark HigginsMark Higgins: ] 
How can you reform education in the state while you entirely neglect Special Education in the plan?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:36 Mark Higgins
12:36
[Comment From TunefulTuneful: ] 
I keep seeing performance based funding, but again, it doesn't matter how good a teacher is, if a child is unwilling or unable to learn because of outside issues, there is really NOTHING that teacher can do.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:36 Tuneful
12:37
[Comment From MariaMaria: ] 
Mr. McLellan, please answer the question about performance based metrics with special education students, etc? That is an important issue as 1 in 5 children are part of the disability community and IDEA will apply to your schools.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:37 Maria
12:37
[Comment From You arent fooling anyoneYou arent fooling anyone: ] 
So many unanswered questions. Politiczing, privatizing and legislative over reaching. This is about power and money and it is deeply insulting to stand behind the premise what is best for parents and students. Reforms(???) what a joke. No research, no data, no collaboration just K-12 destruction.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:37 You arent fooling anyone
12:38
[Comment From cindycindy: ] 
Billie Wimmer should we throw out the pot with the water? Our public education system works for most students, charter schools have not been proven to be an effective alternative.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:38 cindy
12:38
[Comment From Gary NaeyaertGary Naeyaert: ] 
Response to Mary Valentine: Governor Snyder has made it clear that performance based funding should be tied to student growth, not just proficiency. It't more about how a student improves from fall to spring, not just how well they perform. Your assertion about wealthy vs. poor districts is incorrect.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:38 Gary Naeyaert
12:38
[Comment From CherylCheryl: ] 
I'm amused by the administrators, superintendents and school board members who are terrified about this proposal. It only affects you if parents CHOOSE to leave your district - if you are doing such a great jobs, tell the parents and convince others to attend. Competition is good.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:38 Cheryl
12:38
john austin: 
Re Scott and for-profit. You are right i am a always suspicious of "for-profit" anythings when it comes to education. education is something we do for each other to improve lifes, not make money. That said, the best states with good charter regimes, develop lots of new charters, but don't have nearly the number of for-profit operators, (the best ones, none!) because they regulate and police those who can educate our children more rigorously. We have already one of the most wide open charter regimes in michigan-- hence we have good, mediocre and truly bad at educating kids charter schools-- we don't need more of the latter which this complex of bills and proposals could unleash unless we prevent it and regulate it more tighttly
Friday November 30, 2012 12:38 john austin
12:38
[Comment From Rob GlassRob Glass: ] 
Does anyone realize that the two key objectives of the finance reform effort are colliding such that the second will negate the first? Funding based on high stakes/standardized/value added tests is guaranteed to produce conservative, traditional education-- which will kill any chance of anytime,anyplace,any way, any pace/money following the student.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:38 Rob Glass
12:38
[Comment From Sally M - BloomfieldSally M - Bloomfield: ] 
BILLIE - Do you really believe that schools that are not charters and accept all students, even those without the resources to transport themselves to a charter, are doing NOTHING? I think you are speaking in soundbytes for the press.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:38 Sally M - Bloomfield
12:39
Richard McLellan: 
Response to Mark Higgins : I assure you the state education authorities are focusing on special needs students. It is just not a part of my assignment. We did not entirely neglect special education but recognized that a single person could not address these complex issues in 6-months with no staff.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:39 Richard McLellan
12:39
[Comment From TonyTony: ] 
John, what are the quality controls for Detroit Public Schools, in which students scored "little better than guessing" on the last round of standardized tests?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:39 Tony
12:39
[Comment From Mary ValentineMary Valentine: ] 
Cindy is right. We need to find a way to educate students from high poverty areas. For-profits are more interested in profit than students.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:39 Mary Valentine
12:40
[Comment From DonnaDonna: ] 
The learning process does not work well in an online environment, in my opinion. Maturity and student's ability to grasp the information will prevent them from learning.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:40 Donna
12:41
Richard McLellan: 
John Austin says he is "always suspicious of "for-profit" anythings...."
I assume that does not include the many Michigan businesses whose tax dollars help support our public schools. Plus, many school systems are outsourcing services - food, janitorial, transportation, etc., in order to have more funds for teachers.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:41 Richard McLellan
12:41
[Comment From Tim Martin - MLiveTim Martin - MLive: ] 
Richard: Can you outline the “scholarship” aspect of this plan and how it would be funded?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:41 Tim Martin - MLive
12:42
[Comment From Trish BakerTrish Baker: ] 
Hey! I don't read in the legislation, anywhere, this proposal is focused SOLEY on online learning - it seems to me that is about personalized learning - no one has said we want our kids learning everything on-line? No one has said we don't want students learning to work with each other, or not getting mentored by teachers - it is about realizing and accepting there are ways to unbundle the way we educate students!
Friday November 30, 2012 12:42 Trish Baker
12:43
john austin: 
Tony question. Detroit schools and many other communities have many schools that aren't performing. That is why we are serious about turning around (or closing down) these schools if they don't perform. The EAA can help if focused on that mission and if the legislation is pruned of new school authourizing powers for anywhere in the state. Detroit and other communities are great examples of where we need to stay the course of helping them develop new more effective schools-- like through the work of Excellent Schools Detroit-- but the new schools have to be as good or better than the ones they replace--that's the standard we want to insist on in this new school creation stuff that Oxford is proposing-- but so far the lobby for this won't accept any quality control or expectations provided for new schools.

And we turned over Highland park to one of worst-at-educating-kids charter companies-- the Leona Group, we should have given them to one of the best!
Friday November 30, 2012 12:43 john austin
12:43
[Comment From Mary ValentineMary Valentine: ] 
On line learning has its place, but the on-line operators want to make money rather than educate students. We need to stay far, far away from that.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:43 Mary Valentine
12:43
[Comment From Joe J-Conservative VoterJoe J-Conservative Voter: ] 
Richard: The funding mechanism seems to reduce funding to districts proportionally if there are kids that show slow growth, while at the same time it does not reward districts for kids that exceed growth expectations. All sticks, no carrots. Won't this re-write, by definition, lead to the continuous de-funding of even good districts (no district will have 100% of their kids show adequate growth year-to-year, some kids will do worse, others better).
Friday November 30, 2012 12:43 Joe J-Conservative Voter
12:44
[Comment From Paula LancasterPaula Lancaster: ] 
Richard McLellen said, "It is just not a part of my assignment. We did not entirely neglect special education but recognized that a single person could not address these complex issues in 6-months with no staff." Perhaps he should learn to do more with less.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:44 Paula Lancaster
12:44
[Comment From tiggs1tiggs1: ] 
When you talk about performance based funding, are you REALLY comparing Apples to Apples? What about the children who go to school in a class of 34 students compared to the ones who only have 20 per class. That is the real crust of the matter. When you siphon off monies from the system or favor one district over another when it comes to funding, these are the results you get. Oversized class rooms and under funded technoligy.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:44 tiggs1
12:44
[Comment From Sally M - BloomfieldSally M - Bloomfield: ] 
Disagreeing with your privatization profiteering charter plan does not mean advocating for status quo. But those are the only two options you seem to want to discuss. How about funding for longer school years, tutors and mentors, technology... how about fundementally addressing poverty and the growth of it in the US first? Finally, for-profit, publicly traded companies like K.12 by law MUST answer to their shareholders... and they want profit. What do we do with the "unprofitable" and more expensive children that need more resources, time, and, yes, money?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:44 Sally M - Bloomfield
12:45
[Comment From Gary NaeyaertGary Naeyaert: ] 
Response to Cheryl: SPOT-ON!! Schools that meet the needs of their students are not threatened by competition and choice.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:45 Gary Naeyaert
12:45
[Comment From Robin HessRobin Hess: ] 
I strongly believe that early elementary students need to be in a nurturing classroom environment rich with hands-on opportunities and relationships and minimal computer time.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:45 Robin Hess
12:45
john austin: 
Per Richard's comment ---I said suspicious of for-profit firms making money of off education...and i am for business-linked charter schools that bring business expertise to bear....i wrote the book on this for the USED in the 90s-- but schools like the Henry Ford Academy or the new schools at College of Creative Studies or the DMC aren't for profit---they are non-profit schools
Friday November 30, 2012 12:45 john austin
12:45
Richard McLellan: 
Can you outline the “scholarship” aspect of this plan and how it would be funded?

This is part of responding to the Governor's goal of encouraging access to college credits earlier and having the funds follow the student. For a student who is able to accelerate his or her successful high school graduation, some of th funds that would otherwise be available to the student for high school classes could be applied to college. This is just one of many strategies designed to link high school and college/career education. Peter Ruddeel has done the most work on this any may have some more information.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:45 Richard McLellan
12:45
[Comment From Billie WimmerBillie Wimmer: ] 
To Sally - You misinterpret me - I did not say that traditional schools are doing nothing. I am saying that those who have the ability to do other things are resisting change because there are so many questions to answer. That is not leadership.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:45 Billie Wimmer
12:45
[Comment From JrwquattroJrwquattro: ] 
With regard to online learning - technology is a tool. I am fortunate that I can make choices and my children attend an IB school where the focus is on developing learning and understanding why we know what we know. An online data driven curriculum does not allow for students to explore and question how and why - it is only facts. No thanks. Also as a business person I would rather have a creative minded person who learns and questions on the job, developing new ideas an processes than an employee that is trained to a task and doesn't question a thing.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:45 Jrwquattro
12:45
[Comment From Peter RuddellPeter Ruddell: ] 
Technology is at a tipping point in education. Its finally moving beyond simply being an "electronic grade" book and helping teachers move instruction to the individual student. This exactly why the "flipped classroom" concept is proving to be so successful.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:45 Peter Ruddell
12:46
[Comment From Dave Murray MLiveDave Murray MLive: ] 
For John Austin: "And we turned over Highland park to one of worst-at-educating-kids charter companies-- the Leona Group, we should have given them to one of the best!" Is it the state's job to make sure there is oversight so there are no poor-performing charters or traditional schools?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:46 Dave Murray MLive
12:46
[Comment From Sally M - BloomfieldSally M - Bloomfield: ] 
GARY NAEYERT - what is the goal of for-profit companies? multiple choice question: What percent of charters in MIchigan are for-profit? 75%? 80%? or 85%?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:46 Sally M - Bloomfield
12:47
Richard McLellan: 
Response to John Austin: Re for-profit. Your comment suggests that this is an important issue that we should discuss. Links to business and public education should be part of a strategy to turn Michigan's economy around.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:47 Richard McLellan
12:47
[Comment From Gary NaeyaertGary Naeyaert: ] 
Response to Trish Baker: You are correct that there is a disproportionate focus here for distance/online learning. This model will be helpful for SOME students, and should be available. The vast majority of Michigan's children will continue to be educated in brick-and-mortar school buildings. Just another red herring from the defenders of the status quo.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:47 Gary Naeyaert
12:48
[Comment From Billie WimmerBillie Wimmer: ] 
Mary: It is entirely unfair to say that on-line operators want to make money. What about textbook companies? There is a place for all kinds of methods to educate children.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:48 Billie Wimmer
12:48
[Comment From Mary ValentineMary Valentine: ] 
Good point, tiggs1. Additionally, students from areas of high poverty have more struggles and will get less funding. That is ridiculous, of course.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:48 Mary Valentine
12:48
john austin: 
Dave Murray--trying to get me into the ACLU lawsuit! We as a state should forge and implement policies that require that all failing schools get a real-turnaround chance--with new school leadership and management that has a good chance or good track record of actually educating kids successfully. Re highland park -- my point is a potentially effective remedy for their non-success could be to bring in a credible, effective partnership with another school district, university--or charter operator with good success in educating kids.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:48 john austin
12:48
Richard McLellan: 
Resposne to Robin Hess: In all of our discussions with education professionals, the issue of early education is one of the most mentioned. I know it is a priority of the Governor and department of education
Friday November 30, 2012 12:48 Richard McLellan
12:49
[Comment From Mary ValentineMary Valentine: ] 
Gary, that is simply not true. What we want is a system that funds schools in areas of high poverty, where the needs are the greatest and the test scores are the lowest.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:49 Mary Valentine
12:49
[Comment From Tim Martin - MLiveTim Martin - MLive: ] 
Richard, John: Would this plan do anything to change the school calendar and address 'year-round' learning? What are the pros and cons of that?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:49 Tim Martin - MLive
12:50
[Comment From Sally M - BloomfieldSally M - Bloomfield: ] 
Billie - so we should rush ahead before the questions are answered? Experimental education.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:50 Sally M - Bloomfield
12:50
[Comment From Mark HigginsMark Higgins: ] 
I think there is something to be said about not pulling students out of the existing public schools, when we pull out the best students who are we leaving as a peer group for students? Many have studied the wonderful turnaround in Finland's educational system. One reason for the turnaround, no private schools. Every student attends public school.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:50 Mark Higgins
12:50
[Comment From Joan JuzwiakJoan Juzwiak: ] 
Many ramifications of these proposals have to be fully discussed with taxpayers. You are pushing this through too quickly to consider all effects and opinions of stakeholders.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:50 Joan Juzwiak
12:50
[Comment From Bruce B.Bruce B.: ] 
Tony: Do you really believe that the typical parent knows more about what makes for a “Quality” education than Mr. Austin or teachers and administrators that invest their lives in this field?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:50 Bruce B.
12:51
[Comment From TonyTony: ] 
Profit is SCARY! Oh no! People trying to earn money by offering something people want! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO....
Friday November 30, 2012 12:51 Tony
12:52
[Comment From Peter RuddellPeter Ruddell: ] 
Re: Early Graduation Scholarships. The Oxford proposal encourages students -- who are ready -- to move on early. The state pays a foundation grants of roughly $7,000 per pupil per year. If a student graduates one year early, the state is saving $2,000 and the student is being helped with the cost of higher education. This is a win-win-win. Win for the state budget, school budgets and family budgets.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:52 Peter Ruddell
12:52
[Comment From Mary ValentineMary Valentine: ] 
Year-round school would be fantastic. That is one of the weaknesses of our school system. We don't need to pay for-profit operators in order to do that. We need to pay the teachers who are doing the work. Air conditioning might help, too.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:52 Mary Valentine
12:52
[Comment From Patrick ShannonPatrick Shannon: ] 
The profit versus not-for-profit agument is a red herring. Many not-for-profits bury their "profits" in salaries and benefits for their adminstrators and employees to the detriment of those they are to serve. Just look at our not-for-profit health systems in this country. If you haven't noticed these health not-for-profits are moving to closely scrutinized for profit organizations. The world is changing and innovation is needed to access capital and accountability. It is not against the law to make a profit.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:52 Patrick Shannon
12:53
[Comment From Peter RuddellPeter Ruddell: ] 
To Joan Juzwiak: Nothing is being pushed. Go to www.oxfordfoundationmi.com for a complete timeline. This proposal will be fully reviewed in the Legislative process. We are 6+ months away from this being implemented.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:53 Peter Ruddell
12:53
Richard McLellan: 
Would this plan do anything to change the school calendar and address 'year-round' learning?

Response: Yes, in addition to early childhood learning, we have learned that the so-called "summer loss" among students in disadvantaged communities has a great impact on their long term success. Our proposal includes a version of yar around schools. If we are serious about helping all students, we should not be locked into a rural agrarian school calendar in urban schools and others that want extended learning or year around school.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:53 Richard McLellan
12:53
[Comment From Joshua RaymondJoshua Raymond: ] 
Bruce B: While Mr. Austin and educators are experts in education, parents are experts in their children and their needs. Both opinions need to be respected.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:53 Joshua Raymond
12:53
john austin: 
Regarding "good things" in the proposal-- like encouraging year round schools-- absolutely we need to change the calendar and incent that to happen, we aren't in the 19th century anymore. I also want to note the college scholarship idea -- good we need more funding for scholarships. I think the proposal right now misses the main point of "any pace" learning re helping more kids get higher education credentials and experience sooner. Early college-credit taking is good for ALL students meaning high achievers like Governor Snyder who can graduate early---but even more important for at-risk and low achieving students. Great evidence that if we help those kids get early college exposure, dual enrollment, or enroll in early and middle colleges they are more likely to graduate and go on to post-secondary. We need to incent and pay for early college credit-taking for all--including in expensive career-technical arenas that this proposal might undermine.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:53 john austin
12:54
[Comment From Boyne CityBoyne City: ] 
I would echo the comment about looking at Michigan's best schools and identifying & institutionalizing their best practices. I would also encourage you to leverage the best experts in the state to fine tune the new program. The goals seem appropriate, but let's make sure we are considering the entire spectrum of abilities ... from our gifted and talented students to those with special needs. Unfortunately, the gifted kids are overlooked and underfunded in today's model.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:54 Boyne City
12:54
[Comment From Mary ValentineMary Valentine: ] 
I agree with year-round school. In your proposal, would teachers get paid for their extra work if there was any?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:54 Mary Valentine
12:54
Richard McLellan: 
Re: air conditioning. Another example of a potentially costly infrastructure matter.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:54 Richard McLellan
12:55
[Comment From Daniel LurieDaniel Lurie: ] 
Why are there so many accountability measures of late that seem to find ways to fault teachers, and yet students and parents, the two other legs of the educational triad, have absolutely no accountability measures upon them of any consequence? How can we expect anyone would want to go into education if the teacher and the school will be blamed for all of the failures, while students and parents will be credited with all of the successes?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:55 Daniel Lurie
12:56
[Comment From Peter RuddellPeter Ruddell: ] 
We are 53 minutes into this debate, and I am still waiting for someone to defend the industrial, factory model of stamping kids along our education system. John Austin is absolutely correct, our agarian model needs to be updated for 21st century.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:56 Peter Ruddell
12:56
[Comment From Gary NaeyaertGary Naeyaert: ] 
Response to Sally: There are NO for-profit charter schools in Michigan, as each is overseen by a non-profit organization with a board of directors. At the same time, charter public schools *and* traditional public schools may choose to contract with any number of non-profit or for-profit companies for instructional services (teaching, curriculum, books, computers, etc) and non-instructional services (transportation, food service, janitorial, etc). You might want to check out how much money in your Bloomfield schools actually ends up in the pockets of those evil "for profit" companies like Dell Computers, Office Max, Aramark, Dean Transportation, etc.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:56 Gary Naeyaert
12:56
[Comment From Billie WimmerBillie Wimmer: ] 
Bruce: I believe that parents have invested far more into the lives of their children than professional educators. I think it is a partnership that parents should be first to decide. Are some parents unwilling to get involved? Sure. But this new system does not throw them out. There is room for many types of schools and learning. And they can all be great.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:56 Billie Wimmer
12:56
[Comment From Mary ValentineMary Valentine: ] 
Costly but necessary (air conditioning). How would it be paid for? Can they offer air conditioning while they are making a profit?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:56 Mary Valentine
12:56
[Comment From MichiganMan21MichiganMan21: ] 
Re: Mary Valentine, Why should they get paid more to work a year-round full-time job like everyone else?
Friday November 30, 2012 12:56 MichiganMan21
12:57
[Comment From Joan JuzwiakJoan Juzwiak: ] 
Re: Petter Ruddell to Joan Juzwiak -- what about the 2 or 3 bills in the lame duck legislature right now?? You don't call that pushing through???? You've done plenty to survey professionals but what have you done to talks to the millions of taxpayers???
Friday November 30, 2012 12:57 Joan Juzwiak
12:57
john austin: 
Re Mary Valentine's question-- the main worry is that unless carefully crafted the un-bundling of funding could draw 5-10-15-20% of funds from existing schools, making it hard to keep good teachers...and provide other things schools provide.

I see it in my own daughters school in Ypsilanti- a great new school model New Tech High-- is working, but teachers are leaving because of the financial stress and uncertainty, which this proposal could acerbate.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:57 john austin
12:58
Richard McLellan: 
Response to Daniel Lurie: Why are there so many accountability measures of late that seem to find ways to fault teachers, and yet students and parents, the two other legs of the educational triad, have absolutely no accountability measures upon them of any consequence?

The Governor is focused on performance of all elements -- but at the end, it is studen performance, growth and learning that is most important. And we all know that learning happens with great teachers, so teachers must be help accpuntable.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:58 Richard McLellan
12:58
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
OK everybody, we're about to wrap up. Richard and John are welcome to put up final statements.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:58 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:59
[Comment From Mark HigginsMark Higgins: ] 
Re: Peter Ruddell - We are 53 minutes into this debate and you are correct, but we also still have not seen a proposal to fund these changes without driving current public schools into bankruptcy.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:59 Mark Higgins
12:59
[Comment From Patrick ShannonPatrick Shannon: ] 
Thank you John and Richard.
Friday November 30, 2012 12:59 Patrick Shannon
1:00
john austin: 
One final salvo-- State Board suports any time, any pace, any way learning (and said so to the Governor last year (Hi Governor!) if it is interpreted to mean things that improve education quality and outcomes---

I thought the the any's had mostly to do with accelerating learning and self-pacing of student learning to meet their needs...that's great-- I did not know the "any's" in other states like Florida was code for unlimited on-line learning --that is not what we need and lets all help Richard refashion his proposals to improve learning and ensure better learning outcome, and not disable our existing public schools.
Friday November 30, 2012 1:00 john austin
1:00
Richard McLellan: 
Final Comment:
• For a lot more information, go to: Oxfordfoundationmi.com
• This Proposal is our First draft. We are looking for constructive comments and improvements.
• Initiative is based on Governor’s constitutional duty to propose and annual budget to the legislature and the legislature’s duty to create and fund a system of free elementary and secondary public schools.
• The Governor is clear: He wants better performance from public schools and the $14 billion per year investment tax payers make in public education.

Thank you for you interest. And thank you John Austin for participation. We will talk some more.
Friday November 30, 2012 1:00 Richard McLellan
1:00
[Comment From Tim Martin - MLiveTim Martin - MLive: ] 
Much thanks to everyone who participated today.
Friday November 30, 2012 1:00 Tim Martin - MLive
1:00
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
Thanks everybody for participating! We hope to do regular live chats on hot issues like this, so please come back to MLive.
Friday November 30, 2012 1:00 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
1:00
 

 
 
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