Game Club Beyond Good & Evil

(07/07/2008)

7:38

crecente:

Hey everyone we will be starting in about ten minutes

Monday July 7, 2008 7:38 crecente

7:41

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Monday July 7, 2008 7:41

7:41

crecente:

Sorry just waiting for the announcement to hit the front page

Monday July 7, 2008 7:41 crecente

7:43	Is this your first time playing Beyond Good & Evil? Yes ( 48% ) No ( 52% ) Monday July 7, 2008 7:43

7:44

crecente:

Almost there

Monday July 7, 2008 7:44 crecente

7:45

crecente:

Keep in mind that you just type in your comment or question and then I'll approve them. Which is like a million times better than last year's system, which involved Campfire and IM.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:45 crecente

7:47

crecente:

K just a few more minutes, had some issues with the post hitting Kotaku.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:47 crecente

7:49

crecente:

OK, everyone let's get this party started. The best system would be to write the word Question: followed by the question in comments if you have one to ask the group. Otherwise, if you just want to make a comment type it in and ill set it live.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:49 crecente

7:50

crecente:

The most obvious question, I think, is a basic one about the nature of the game's good guys and bad guys. Who do you think, so early in the game, is the real bad guys of Hillys? Is it the IRIS Network, the Alpha Sections or DomZ?

Monday July 7, 2008 7:50 crecente

7:51

[Comment From Zombie_MoogleZombie_Moogle: ]

at this point, no one seems like a "good guy"

Monday July 7, 2008 7:51 Zombie_Moogle

7:51

[Comment From chiztrochiztro: ]

Answer: I Think Its The Alpha Sections And DomZ combined

Monday July 7, 2008 7:51 chiztro

7:51

[Comment From MainmanMainman: ]

All three. Definitely.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:51 Mainman

7:51

[Comment From MucudadadaMucudadada: ]

DomZ is the most obvious becasue of the violent nature of the attacks. The only bad from Alpha Netowk so far is implied.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:51 Mucudadada

7:51

[Comment From GusherKidGusherKid: ]

The Alpha Sections always seemed real shady. The game had a 1984 vibe to it.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:51 GusherKid

7:51

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

I'd go with the paranoia of the main characters, actually.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:51 Guest

7:51

[Comment From ChainrxnChainrxn: ]

Given the point we are at in the story, i dont know how you can completely trust either of them....if i had to make a decision, I would go for IRIS though

Monday July 7, 2008 7:51 Chainrxn

7:51

[Comment From inkyinky: ]

Well, I'd say it would be a pretty serious derailing of the plot if it turned out that the IRIS Network were the bad guys.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:51 inky

7:52

[Comment From JoeBJoeB: ]

I don't know if we've seen enough of the game to make that judgement.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:52 JoeB

7:52

[Comment From ThisCharmingManThisCharmingMan: ]

I think there definitely is something odd about the true agenda of the IRIS Network, especially based on all the propaganda videos seen around town

Monday July 7, 2008 7:52 ThisCharmingMan

7:52

[Comment From Russell K (aphexsloth)Russell K (aphexsloth): ]

I'm not exactly clear on which is which, but the police are useless

Monday July 7, 2008 7:52 Russell K (aphexsloth)

7:52

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

I do not trust the IRIS network.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:52 Speegle

7:52

[Comment From Sparky ClarksonSparky Clarkson: ]

Comment: The demonic voice of the General and the Nazi imagery of the Alpha Secions are... unsubtle

Monday July 7, 2008 7:52 Sparky Clarkson

7:52

[Comment From tehteh: ]

Depends on your definition of "bad." It's hard to say given that we don't know much about the motivations of the three groups, and even that of the protagonists

Monday July 7, 2008 7:52 teh

7:53

[Comment From MarikMarik: ]

So we've just received an invitation from IRIS to join their rebel forces. From what it sounds like the alpha sections isn't exactly 'protecting' Hillys from the DomZ, but rather trying to recruit natives into their forces using planned attacks.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:53 Marik

7:53

[Comment From inkyinky: ]

Yeah, the propaganda from the Alpha Section, which seems intended to annoy, really makes it seem like the game is sort of pitting the player against them from the start.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:53 inky

7:54

crecente:

A lot of you are mentioning the proaganda themes of the game. Here's a good question about that.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:54 crecente

7:54

[Comment From tehteh: ]

Question: How effective is the use of the propaganda audio in terms of both setting the mood of the game and to instill (dis)trust into some of these organizations?

Monday July 7, 2008 7:54 teh

7:55

crecente:

I think that the game raises just as many serious questions about abuse of government authority as it does about the roll of journalism and a free press in a democratic society. Is the IRIS Network a network of journalists or a Fifth Column?

Monday July 7, 2008 7:55 crecente

7:55

[Comment From ArsenicberylliumArsenicberyllium: ]

Well, the propaganda was surprisingly propganda free. It wasn't laid on thick or anything, and even allowed negative dissent. Most of the support seemed to come from all the people who blindly supported the Alpha.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:55 Arsenicberyllium

7:56

[Comment From inkyinky: ]

Well, it's audio and video. There are some monitors around the main town that have imagery that supports the audio. The constant propaganda really makes you feel like you're living in a police state.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:56 inky

7:56

[Comment From eugaeteugaet: ]

It was interesting to hear the news coverage after the initial combat was over. I listened to it numerous times to see if they had slightly changed what Pey'j had said.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:56 eugaet

7:56

[Comment From MucudadadaMucudadada: ]

Well, the media is controlled by Alpha Section. So, really you feel helpless because you don't know the truth. Words are just being shoveled at you.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:56 Mucudadada

7:56

[Comment From Sensai-NSensai-N: ]

The propoganda audio is great for setting the tone and mood the game. It gives it an air of conspiracy theory with a nice "1984" finish.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:56 Sensai-N

7:56

[Comment From Sparky ClarksonSparky Clarkson: ]

It's pretty militant, isn't it? The staging of the first fight does a good job of identifying the DomZ as a ruthless enemy. This puts you in a mood to receive the militant imagery. As time goes on, it wears on you and starts to sound creepy.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:56 Sparky Clarkson

7:56

[Comment From TheEvilMr.RogersTheEvilMr.Rogers: ]

the propaganda its very direct, at least with the alpha squad, with iris it still feels very underground, i guess its means to emphasis who is in control

Monday July 7, 2008 7:56 TheEvilMr.Rogers

7:57

[Comment From martinmartin: ]

I think it maybe it was a criticism of the media and not necessarily propaganda.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:57 martin

7:57

[Comment From GendoGendo: ]

I think the use of the propaganda audio and video throughout the beginning of the game was very effective. Especially the boundaries that are set up, really feels like you're being confined and watched.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:57 Gendo

7:58

crecente:

How do you think this question of government power, mainstream media and a fringe media address issues that we face today? Obviously the game wasn't made to bring any of this up, but is it still relevant?

Monday July 7, 2008 7:58 crecente

7:58

[Comment From ianovichianovich: ]

The repeated phrase "Loyal Hillyans" certainly has propagandistic, if not outright fascist overtones.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:58 ianovich

7:58

[Comment From inkyinky: ]

I would say that there's a message in how the mainstream media (seen after the first DomZ attack) misrepresented the will of the populace, whereas Jade, the protagonist, represents freelance journalism, which is represented today by things like blogs.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:58 inky

7:59

[Comment From tehteh: ]

@martin...I think it's a bit of both. There's definitely media bias (after the first fight sequence); at the same time, though, each is trying to set their own slant on the state of the world.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:59 teh

7:59

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

I think we are rapidly heading in a direction where all relevant media is mainstream i.e. internet, independent journalists, and bloggers. There is not filtration system.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:59 Speegle

7:59

[Comment From ShaggEShaggE: ]

It will be relevant as long as there is a government. This type of story never becomes outdated.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:59 ShaggE

7:59

[Comment From Sensai-NSensai-N: ]

The role of the "free press" as we are introduced to it at the beginning, when the journalist arrives on the island to do a photo-op and sound byte for his "let's hear it for the Alpha Section!" piece really makes me wonder about their motivation. It does leave you wondering if they are another propoganda arm of the government or if they are really reporting.

Monday July 7, 2008 7:59 Sensai-N

8:00

[Comment From chiztrochiztro: ]

iraq war, fighting for democracy for another country. telling americans that this is not a war about oil. the war must go on? sounds almost exactly like the game although different subject, the way its handle is almost identical

Monday July 7, 2008 8:00 chiztro

8:00

[Comment From SeptemberSeptember: ]

Definitely, the game portrays how mainstream media can control the opinions and perspectives of the general populace. The government in the game itself seems so overpowering and suspicious but no one questions it.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:00 September

8:00

[Comment From MucudadadaMucudadada: ]

Very relevant. Whenever there is a war going on the media plays a huge part in the coverage of the war and how the American people see it. For instance, Vietnam was really the first war to be zapped into widespread viewers homes. And we all know how the feeling was on that one.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:00 Mucudadada

8:00

[Comment From bangbangblahbangbangblah: ]

I feel it's always relevant -- Just as V for Vendetta was written in the '80s and was able to be used as a film in 2000s. There's always that fear of the government-media connection, and there's always the hope of an uproot movement. BG&E does a great job of addressing that.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:00 bangbangblah

8:00

[Comment From Her Own MonsterHer Own Monster: ]

I think Jade hits home for a lot of people playing today. She's a young, progressive person who thinks for herself. It's entirely possible she's meant as a touchstone for people who feel alienated by the government.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:00 Her Own Monster

8:00

[Comment From CulebraCulebra: ]

But are blogs really freelance? In all honesty, the only reason we believe in Jade's good will and fair nature is because the story tells us so, from a Hillyan point of view, it's just more propaganda.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:00 Culebra

8:00

[Comment From DaveKapDaveKap: ]

I can't find enough relevance with the game's media and today's real life media because in today's media we are given a choice of watching left/right/middle wing banter depending on the channel or show, but in the game we are only given the 1 channel to watch.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:00 DaveKap

8:00

[Comment From ianovichianovich: ]

Of course it's still relevant. The calling out of the Iris "traitors in our midst" is very reminiscent of the political tactic of questioning the patriotism of the other side of the debate.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:00 ianovich

8:01

[Comment From SkepticSkeptic: ]

Question: Does the animal-picture mechanic help draw you into the world or distract you?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:01 Skeptic

8:02

[Comment From Zombie_MoogleZombie_Moogle: ]

i think it makes the game more immersive\

Monday July 7, 2008 8:02 Zombie_Moogle

8:03

[Comment From chiztrochiztro: ]

the animal-picture mechanic is definitely used to distract you. So Are the stimulus checks.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:03 chiztro

8:03

crecente:

I wonder if later in the game you will be asked to take pictures of atrocities or military actions.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:03 crecente

8:04

[Comment From GodluvsuglyGodluvsugly: ]

@ brian: i could see that happening

Monday July 7, 2008 8:04 Godluvsugly

8:04

[Comment From TheEvilMr.RogersTheEvilMr.Rogers: ]

the way the lines are drawn between IRIS and the alpha squad i would think so

Monday July 7, 2008 8:04 TheEvilMr.Rogers

8:04

[Comment From bangbangblahbangbangblah: ]

Yeah, it definitely feels like the animals are just a precursor of things to come. Almost like a training mechanism.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:04 bangbangblah

8:04

[Comment From inkyinky: ]

@crecente: Well, the whole idea was that we were supposed to "expose" alpha squadron, as the representative from IRIS said. I think it's implied.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:04 inky

8:04

[Comment From IshIsh: ]

Speaking of the animals, would you ever draw a link to Orwell's Animal Farm since a lot of the citizens resemble animals? Considering the story as well...

Monday July 7, 2008 8:04 Ish

8:05

[Comment From Shin_EinShin_Ein: ]

Answer: I'd say it helps draw me in. A lot of the times we can associate different personalities with various animals. When i ran across various NPCs, i had kind of an idea of what that persons role would be in the game.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:05 Shin_Ein

8:05

[Comment From FalconrithFalconrith: ]

Casting the main character as a journalist seems to be making a statement about the value of information over force.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:05 Falconrith

8:05

crecente:

But is she really a journalist or just an observer

Monday July 7, 2008 8:05 crecente

8:05

[Comment From ianovichianovich: ]

Well, the animals in Animal Farm weren't really concerned with outside threats like the Domz.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:05 ianovich

8:05

[Comment From Russell K (aphexsloth)Russell K (aphexsloth): ]

but she's a mercenary also - freelancer getting paid for photos

Monday July 7, 2008 8:05 Russell K (aphexsloth)

8:06

[Comment From bangbangblahbangbangblah: ]

She's both. She's an example of how even we can make a change through action.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:06 bangbangblah

8:06

[Comment From MainmanMainman: ]

Question: There are various different animal-human hybrid characters in the game world. Were they created to represent stereotypes, or do they have another purpose? How do they affect your perception of the game world?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:06 Mainman

8:06

[Comment From The NickrossThe Nickross: ]

I would suggest that there's nothing stereotypical about a jamaican rhino.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:06 The Nickross

8:06

[Comment From Sensai-NSensai-N: ]

I think the animal-pictures are used to appeal to your caring sensibilities, i.e. to make you care about what happens to these people. Maybe for a plot point later, perhaps?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:06 Sensai-N

8:07

[Comment From SkepticSkeptic: ]

There doesn't seem to be any animal hierarchy or use of stereotypes. I mean, rhinos run a repair shop. A pig takes in orphaned children, some of which are humans and others rams.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:07 Skeptic

8:07

[Comment From sanjisanji: ]

i think animals keep it light and fun

Monday July 7, 2008 8:07 sanji

8:08

crecente:

The use of animals reminds me that the reason science fiction can deal with such serious topics is because it does so behind a facade of fantasy. Like the famous black and white episode of Star Trek.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:08 crecente

8:08

[Comment From ThisCharmingManThisCharmingMan: ]

I haven't seen any animal hybrid characters at the forefront of any kind of powerful position in society though,they're all human....so far.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:08 ThisCharmingMan

8:08

[Comment From GusherKidGusherKid: ]

Animals keep it cartoonish and allow it to remain as satire.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:08 GusherKid

8:09

[Comment From chiztrochiztro: ]

or animals can be used to resemble the "lower" class people of the hyllian society

Monday July 7, 2008 8:09 chiztro

8:09

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

To Crecente: Yeah, reminds a great deal of Wall E. Using a cute Johnny #5 clone to broach environmental concerns.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:09 Speegle

8:09

[Comment From Netjive8Netjive8: ]

@Charming: I agree, since the animals seem to interact with Jade often, it seems that they may be viewed as outcasts.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:09 Netjive8

8:09

[Comment From SkepticSkeptic: ]

I don't see the connection to scifi/satire with the use of animals. To me, these animals are not central to the themes of the game. I think it could address the issues of (dis)trust in government, propaganda, and resistance just as easily without having animal characters.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:09 Skeptic

8:10

[Comment From SeptemberSeptember: ]

I think the use of animals gives the world an even greater sense of awe. They're present as a means of creating a fantasy-based atmosphere. But on another note, it might be there as a cover to shield the typical gamer from seeing the more serious themes underlying the game--similar to Animal Farm.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:10 September

8:10

[Comment From CulebraCulebra: ]

Question: Do you feel that the context sensitive nature of combat was intentional, to force you against harming 'innocents', or simply a design desicion for no particular reason?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:10 Culebra

8:11

crecente:

Combat in the game almost feels like an aside to me.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:11 crecente

8:11

crecente:

At least so far.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:11 crecente

8:11

[Comment From masterboommasterboom: ]

Oh you can still harm innocents. I hurt Pey'j like a bad habit when I'm fighting the enemy.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:11 masterboom

8:11

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

I think the gamer mindset it to hit everything with a stick first, ask questions later. It forces the gamer to use their minds instead of their fists. Dare I say that this is more of a female tack?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:11 Speegle

8:11

[Comment From inkyinky: ]

@crecente: There definitely isn't that much of a focus on combat. The main focus seems to be the puzzle/journalism aspect.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:11 inky

8:11

[Comment From SeptemberSeptember: ]

@Crecente: For sure, I see this game as more plot driven than gameplay driven. The combat system doesn't get in the way, but it's by no means deep and engrossing.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:11 September

8:12

[Comment From bangbangblahbangbangblah: ]

This actually kind of bugs me too, but I think it might be trying to get the point across that Jade isn't a badguy. If you could hurt people on your free will, then it would completely contradict here character. This isn't an RPG or anything where we choose her path.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:12 bangbangblah

8:12

[Comment From SkepticSkeptic: ]

@ crecente: I disagree. Combat was part of the dramatic opening sequence, which was how they introduced you to the world. Combat seems very important so far.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:12 Skeptic

8:12

[Comment From GusherKidGusherKid: ]

I love the context sensitivity simply because it shows how much they thought about each portion of the game. Other games just plop enemies around, but here they only let you attack at certain moments. Plus it's more of that idea of combat being used as a last ditch effort and the battles are more often won with brains.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:12 GusherKid

8:12

[Comment From InterstellaInterstella: ]

its part of the strategy to make you feel helpless, and being only able to defend yourself barely.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:12 Interstella

8:13

crecente:

What do you think of the decision to have a female lead? It seems like a role that could have been filled by either a man or a woman. Personally, I think it helps you feel more sympathetic to the character.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:13 crecente

8:13

[Comment From FalconrithFalconrith: ]

Question: Does the main character being female have anything to do with the game being less combat focused?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:13 Falconrith

8:14

[Comment From ianovichianovich: ]

Maybe they were just bucking the trend of a male dominated industry?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:14 ianovich

8:14

[Comment From ZenGaijinZenGaijin: ]

I think it has to do with the bond with the children. As a woman you feel more of a motherly role when seeking to protect them in the opening scene.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:14 ZenGaijin

8:14

[Comment From BillkwandoBillkwando: ]

Most likely so. Plus I think it's easier to trust benevolent motivations coming from a wonman. You read less into it and just trust

Monday July 7, 2008 8:14 Billkwando

8:14

[Comment From PhazonmasherPhazonmasher: ]

The woman is an underrepresented force in gaming. Choosing a female lead not only makes you feel sympathetic but makes the game feel more special than the usual space marine fare.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:14 Phazonmasher

8:14

[Comment From Zombie_MoogleZombie_Moogle: ]

it might be hard to believe that a male character would avoid confrontation that strongly

Monday July 7, 2008 8:14 Zombie_Moogle

8:14

[Comment From DejanusDejanus: ]

The combat feels effortless, like Jade somehow always knows exactly what to do in these situations despite her lack of experience, perhaps relating to some latent ability.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:14 Dejanus

8:14

[Comment From inkyinky: ]

I think it was more of a decision intended to draw female gamers in. That said, it really is a good thing that Jade is strong, independent, and not over-sexualized.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:14 inky

8:14

[Comment From Netjive8Netjive8: ]

I think a woman caring for orphans appeals sympathetically to people.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:14 Netjive8

8:15

[Comment From TheGamestaTheGamesta: ]

I agree with ianovich, but it definitely helps in creating a more empathetic experience

Monday July 7, 2008 8:15 TheGamesta

8:15

[Comment From SeptemberSeptember: ]

I honestly think the decision of a female lead is a daring one. Many games are overlooked simply because of the fact the the main character is female (such as No One Lives Forver despite getting raving reviews). In both games, though, I feel like the role of the female lead helped you see the game in a different perspective. I don't know if it's due to society or not, but, in general, I don't see male leads as being as sympathetic, caring, or emotional.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:15 September

8:16

[Comment From ianovichianovich: ]

I just think it's awesome to have a badass, no-nonsense female character who doesn't have to give up her nurturing side (see: orphans)

Monday July 7, 2008 8:16 ianovich

8:16

[Comment From CulebraCulebra: ]

@crecente That brings up a question about how much you 'become' the character while you play. Are you, the player, more sympathetic because Jade is?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:16 Culebra

8:16

[Comment From PatMan33PatMan33: ]

The lead acts as our connection to the world; however, the sex of the lead does very little in my opinion to change the dynamic. What makes or breaks the game is the lead's personality.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:16 PatMan33

8:17

[Comment From ChainrxnChainrxn: ]

@ Culebra: That would vary wildly, player to player, in my opinion

Monday July 7, 2008 8:17 Chainrxn

8:17

[Comment From chiztrochiztro: ]

i think that in todays society, a woman who is independent, strong, and sympathetic is definitely an icon of value to the male population, and in so i wouldnt see it uncommon for a guy to play the game and feel some emotion towards a female character with those attrributes

Monday July 7, 2008 8:17 chiztro

8:17

[Comment From InterstellaInterstella: ]

you could put lara croft and i wouldnt care one bit about she beeing empathetic ! its the character not the sex

Monday July 7, 2008 8:17 Interstella

8:17

[Comment From PhazonmasherPhazonmasher: ]

Western culture abhors making men seem "sympathetic, caring and emotional." With a woman, it's more acceptable. If a man was cast in Jade's role with all the same characteristics, it would be blasted as being homosexual by too many people. It's hard to tell an emotional story with a male due to this stupid Western mindset that an emotional man is less of a man.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:17 Phazonmasher

8:17

[Comment From BillkwandoBillkwando: ]

I think you're more open to the emotional development of a female characheter

Monday July 7, 2008 8:17 Billkwando

8:17

[Comment From DejanusDejanus: ]

@Culebra: Not neccesarily, most gamers still have a moral compass despite Tommy Vercitti or CJ Johnson's lack of one.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:17 Dejanus

8:17

[Comment From PatMan33PatMan33: ]

@ Interstella, I agree totally

Monday July 7, 2008 8:17 PatMan33

8:18

[Comment From TheGamestaTheGamesta: ]

@PatMan33, I agree. For instance a game like Dreamfall where you play both a female and male role alternatively; I felt an equal amount of connection with them as well as the world within it.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:18 TheGamesta

8:18

[Comment From Sensai-NSensai-N: ]

@Phazonmasher, I agree 100%.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:18 Sensai-N

8:19

[Comment From tehteh: ]

Question: What do people think of Jade's relationship with Pey'j? Any thoughts as to what the backstory is there?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:19 teh

8:19

crecente:

I can't tell what's going on there. He seems to be a bit of a father figure, but so far I'm not to invested in him. He's just not enough of the plot yet.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:19 crecente

8:19

[Comment From BrodyBBrodyB: ]

Pey'j is Jade's uncle. I completely buy that.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:19 BrodyB

8:19

[Comment From tehteh: ]

It's not romantic, but there's some sense of "we've been through a lot together"

Monday July 7, 2008 8:19 teh

8:20

[Comment From chiztrochiztro: ]

@teh: it seems that jade herself was once an orphan taken in by pey'j but early on it seems that there is another side of an untold story with her

Monday July 7, 2008 8:20 chiztro

8:20

[Comment From SeptemberSeptember: ]

I think Pey'j relationship with Jade is to show his more human-like aspects. I believe the game developers did this intentionally so we don't see Pey'j simply as some "animal" but rather a real character deeply involved with Jade and yourself.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:20 September

8:20

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

teh: YES! Like Naked Snake and The Boss!

Monday July 7, 2008 8:20 Speegle

8:22

crecente:

I know this was probably driven by play mechanics, but it sort of bothers me that so far Jade seems only able to tell the real story through pictures. I suppose down the line she could write up stories to go with her pics, but I sort of doubt that will happen. What does that say about the nature of trust in the written word? Can you only trust what you see with your own eyes? If so why does such a futuristic society put trust in images, something so easily manipulated?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:22 crecente

8:23

[Comment From adipisicingadipisicing: ]

I don't think writing would make as good of a game mechanic.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:23 adipisicing

8:23

[Comment From BillkwandoBillkwando: ]

I think a lot has changed after the "photoshopped smoke incident"

Monday July 7, 2008 8:23 Billkwando

8:23

[Comment From Zombie_MoogleZombie_Moogle: ]

again, ot's an issue of propaganda & what is truly believable

Monday July 7, 2008 8:23 Zombie_Moogle

8:23

[Comment From ianovichianovich: ]

A picture is worth a thousand words. And video games are primarily a visual medium. Maybe the developers are just sticking with what's comfortable.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:23 ianovich

8:23

[Comment From TheGamestaTheGamesta: ]

This isn't so different than how we react to the media in real life is it?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:23 TheGamesta

8:23

[Comment From DaveKapDaveKap: ]

Obviously this universe doesn't have Photoshop.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:23 DaveKap

8:23

[Comment From masterboommasterboom: ]

It definitely gives the viewer a heightened sense of freedom in determining their own set of convictions about a particular topic.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:23 masterboom

8:23

[Comment From inkyinky: ]

Sight is the number one sense we use to interface with the world, so we'll trust images way more than writing. We can hear about ghost stories and shrug them off, but for some people seeing supposed 'videos' of ghosts really gets them thinking.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:23 inky

8:23

[Comment From Sensai-NSensai-N: ]

Images are powerful, manipulated or otherwise. I don't know how much you can trust just any old image, but you can say a lot with an image that you can't just through written words.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:23 Sensai-N

8:23

[Comment From ZenGaijinZenGaijin: ]

I don't know text can be easily altered. Whenever you tell someone about an exploit or an outting where something unbelievable happened they usually ask for pictures. Sometime a picture captures all of what is needed to be said.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:23 ZenGaijin

8:23

[Comment From UnrequitedUnrequited: ]

Well their "pictures" are really hologram reproductions, and they can take all sorts of metadata from it, I'm assuming those would be a lot harder to fake. Plus, the extra assignments of putting yourself behind a TV behind a woman (Jade) behind a camera behind the target itself makes for a certain level of immersion even though you'd think otherwise.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:23 Unrequited

8:24

[Comment From c0wb0yc0wb0y: ]

Perhaps they cannot read. Idiocracy anyone?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:24 c0wb0y

8:24

[Comment From ThisCharmingManThisCharmingMan: ]

Probably because (much like our society, sadly) nobody reads anymore. Pictures are quick, and speak volumes, even if they're easily manipulated.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:24 ThisCharmingMan

8:24

[Comment From MucudadadaMucudadada: ]

Well, I think the game looks at the general socity as a group of people who is side-tracked with putting up force fields to protect there families than to question those who are protecting them. When you are being attacked and hurt like that you lose faith, and you only beleive your eyes. And all they see is Alpha section helping them.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:24 Mucudadada

8:24

[Comment From ianovichianovich: ]

@c0wb0y: There are signs everywhere. I think they can read.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:24 ianovich

8:24

[Comment From GusherKidGusherKid: ]

They have newspapers from both sides of the movements, both of which obviously contain lies.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:24 GusherKid

8:25

[Comment From Blah8Blah8: ]

Good point - images are used by the Alpha Sections to help their propaganda on the screens throughout the city, so why should Jade's be taken much more seriously?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:25 Blah8

8:25

[Comment From InterstellaInterstella: ]

an image is a thing of perceptions, pictures cant be made so you get them in a ceirtain way besides of what they show. text is what a person thinks and can be biased. images can only be set up.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:25 Interstella

8:25

[Comment From Zombie_MoogleZombie_Moogle: ]

Alpha's rarely show anything other than their fights with the DomZ

Monday July 7, 2008 8:25 Zombie_Moogle

8:26

[Comment From tehteh: ]

@Blah8...maybe because we seem to distrust larger organizations and place more faith in "the little guy's" voice?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:26 teh

8:26

[Comment From PhazonmasherPhazonmasher: ]

There is a certain allure to what normal people aren't allowed to see. Even if the picture is falsified, if somebody claims to have photographic evidence against whatever powers that be, it makes it much more interesting and trustworthy.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:26 Phazonmasher

8:26

[Comment From ArsenicberylliumArsenicberyllium: ]

Question: Why are the newspapers so cheap? A single healing item costs more than a years subscription to every newspaper on the planet. Do you feel this shows the devaluation of the media? Or is it just for game-cost sakes?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:26 Arsenicberyllium

8:27

[Comment From cskozmocskozmo: ]

Probably a little of both, maybe newspapers are subsidized.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:27 cskozmo

8:27

[Comment From ianovichianovich: ]

Distribution is cheap. Newspapers are beamed right to your cellphone/pda

Monday July 7, 2008 8:27 ianovich

8:27

[Comment From adipisicingadipisicing: ]

Arsenicberyllium: If the newspapers are propaganda, their publishers want you to have them with as few barriers as possible.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:27 adipisicing

8:28

[Comment From tehteh: ]

It could be the abundance and availability of the media. Given that I can go online to read news, newspapers are practically giving newspapers subscriptions away to get money from those sources.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:28 teh

8:28

[Comment From DejanusDejanus: ]

In the USSR, the state newspaper was free, and circulated to places where there was not even food at times.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:28 Dejanus

8:28

[Comment From Blah8Blah8: ]

Newspapers can be used to feed the public information, so making them easy to obtain helps keep the public in the same school of thought as the paper's writers.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:28 Blah8

8:28

[Comment From ThisCharmingManThisCharmingMan: ]

@Arsenicberyllium: I agree, if media is controlled, they want to get it in the hands of as many people as possible.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:28 ThisCharmingMan

8:28

[Comment From MainmanMainman: ]

Question: The player is meant to feel uneasy about the truth of the conflict, but what about the other characters? Have any of them suggested directly that something is fishy, or do the majority of the population seem to believe the propaganda?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:28 Mainman

8:29

crecente:

Good point. You've got the good guys (maybe) and the bad guys (maybe) but what about all of the people out there living their lives. Why dont they ever seem concerned about what's going on?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:29 crecente

8:29

[Comment From ianovichianovich: ]

Pey'j is obviously a dissenting voice, as is Hahn.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:29 ianovich

8:29

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Perhaos the dissenters "disappear."

Monday July 7, 2008 8:29 Speegle

8:29

[Comment From K-DashK-Dash: ]

The children who were sitting around the radio seemed to believe every word that came out of it.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:29 K-Dash

8:30

[Comment From Her Own MonsterHer Own Monster: ]

There are citizens who claim they need to steal to feed their families, and that their loved ones were taken in the night. There is a small subset of the population that knows something is up.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:30 Her Own Monster

8:30

[Comment From TheGamestaTheGamesta: ]

I think Pey'j is holding out on us. He definitely suggested something was up with the guy from IRIS

Monday July 7, 2008 8:30 TheGamesta

8:31

[Comment From pROvIspROvIs: ]

We haven't discovered too many characters but id say all we have encountered so far have serious doubts. Pay'ge obviously doesnt trust Alpha Sections, The jamacan Rhino's dont even accept the standard currency, and the Guy driving the limo is in a resistance sect.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:31 pROvIs

8:31

[Comment From CulebraCulebra: ]

@crecente Maybe as a commentary to life? There are direct parallels to the game characters uncaring nature and today's world.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:31 Culebra

8:31

[Comment From MainmanMainman: ]

@Speegle: Hahn did say that 'for every one recruited, ten go missing'.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:31 Mainman

8:31

[Comment From Zombie_MoogleZombie_Moogle: ]

as in real life, most people don't have the time or resourses to investigate the government

Monday July 7, 2008 8:31 Zombie_Moogle

8:31

[Comment From c0wb0yc0wb0y: ]

Why dont they ever seem concerned about what's going on? In American history, it has often been an iconic image that has roused public opinion. Think of any iconic photo from Vietnam.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:31 c0wb0y

8:31

[Comment From tehteh: ]

@TheGamesta...That's an interesting point. That event could be seen as raising the stakes for the narrative by making the next mission seem more dangerous, but, given the distrust added to the game, it can take on another meaning

Monday July 7, 2008 8:31 teh

8:32

[Comment From Netjive8Netjive8: ]

@Zombie_Moogle: Maybe the people don't want to find out the truth.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:32 Netjive8

8:32

[Comment From Her Own MonsterHer Own Monster: ]

@Zombie_moogle; Especially when they constantly fear for their lives in a war situation.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:32 Her Own Monster

8:33

crecente:

Do you think that Beyond Good and Evil does a better job of relying on the story and not play mechanic to tell a story than other games do?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:33 crecente

8:34

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

very much so

Monday July 7, 2008 8:34 Guest

8:34

[Comment From dawimp523dawimp523: ]

Absolutely. It's one of the most engaging stories I've ever played in a game.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:34 dawimp523

8:34

[Comment From UnrequitedUnrequited: ]

To an extent, yes... but at the end of the day, you're still a girl swinging a big stick to kill bad guys, pick up purple money, and buy items to kill more bad guys later.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:34 Unrequited

8:34

[Comment From Netjive8Netjive8: ]

I believe so. The pitfall of most games is that they rely TOO much on combat.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:34 Netjive8

8:34

[Comment From itiswhatitisitiswhatitis: ]

What do you mean relying on the story? I think BG&E does a better job of relying on short simple cut scenes and letting you discover the bread crumbs along the way

Monday July 7, 2008 8:34 itiswhatitis

8:34

[Comment From DejanusDejanus: ]

When the play mechanis of photagraphy is so interwoven with the game story, can it be said that they are really seperate?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:34 Dejanus

8:34

[Comment From TheGamestaTheGamesta: ]

@crecente I think they have a great balance of gameplay and story progression going so far. The fighting is fun and the story is so far very interesting.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:34 TheGamesta

8:35

crecente:

See while I'm quite enjoying the game, it feels a little light on the gameplay side to me.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:35 crecente

8:35

[Comment From masterboommasterboom: ]

The story definitely drives me forward to want to find out what is really going on, but without the play mechanic being good, I probably would not care how it turned out.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:35 masterboom

8:35

[Comment From BillkwandoBillkwando: ]

The mechanic could be transplanted into any kind of story. I think the story tells the story

Monday July 7, 2008 8:35 Billkwando

8:35

[Comment From MucudadadaMucudadada: ]

Yes. So, far the play mechanics have nothing I haven't seen in other games. The fun comes in with al the conspiracies and theories.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:35 Mucudadada

8:35

[Comment From c0wb0yc0wb0y: ]

I am not hooked yet by the game play, so the story must be doing something right.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:35 c0wb0y

8:35

[Comment From Zombie_MoogleZombie_Moogle: ]

I feel compelled to keep playing because i want to see what happens next, more so than that i'm enthralled in combat

Monday July 7, 2008 8:35 Zombie_Moogle

8:35

[Comment From Sensai-NSensai-N: ]

BG&E is a good adventure-style game that does a great job of "showing" and not "telling". The game mechanic of picture-taking photojournalism does that to good effect.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:35 Sensai-N

8:35

[Comment From ianovichianovich: ]

The photography aspect has limitless potential for plot revelations and story progression.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:35 ianovich

8:35

[Comment From CulebraCulebra: ]

@Crecente Sadly, yes. The mechanics can feel somewhat stilted, and dodgy at times. It's not un-fun, but the story really tries to be the star. It feels as if the game thinks highly of itself, if that makes sense.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:35 Culebra

8:35

[Comment From PhazonmasherPhazonmasher: ]

I think that BG&E would work better as a film but as a game, it does its job admirably. It gives you that sense of immersion in the world but the gameplay doesn't do anything to draw you more into the world than the story already has.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:35 Phazonmasher

8:36

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

@ Crecente: I have a feeling the gameplay will pick up a lot. I feel like this first section was all training.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:36 Speegle

8:36

[Comment From IshIsh: ]

Certainly. So far the premise and story is placed right before the player's eyes. It is definitely more emphasized than the gameplay imo, but at the same time the gameplay aesthetics (i.e. photos) due well to support the story and game world. A lot of games do quite the opposite.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:36 Ish

8:36

[Comment From SkepticSkeptic: ]

I would rather this game be a point-and-click adventure.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:36 Skeptic

8:36

[Comment From UnrequitedUnrequited: ]

>crecente have you learned or tried dodging/combo'ing? That adds a lot of (unecessary) skill-based gameplay to the fights.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:36 Unrequited

8:37

crecente:

I did a little dodging. Dont get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I'm really sort of fascinated that the game can keep me so interested when it feels so easy to play and quick to get through.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:37 crecente

8:37

[Comment From Zombie_MoogleZombie_Moogle: ]

@Phazonmasher: I greatly disagree. the game is captivating because you see what she sees through the lense of her camera; you feel like you're there because of it

Monday July 7, 2008 8:37 Zombie_Moogle

8:37

[Comment From UnrequitedUnrequited: ]

to continue, I found the fighting to be very easy, even on hard. But then again we've been exposed to Ninja Gaiden, God of War, etc... this is nowhere near as "gameplay"-y as they are.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:37 Unrequited

8:37

[Comment From DejanusDejanus: ]

In a way BGaE seems like a more adult Pixar film, withall the wonder intact but a darkerconspiracy plot added.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:37 Dejanus

8:38

[Comment From pROvIspROvIs: ]

@Phazonmasher Interesting point. Would having the game as a film take away from your sympathy with the main character and feeling a personal connection to the story?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:38 pROvIs

8:38

[Comment From SkepticSkeptic: ]

@ crecente: Which is strange considering Ubi said BG&E2 would be easier.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:38 Skeptic

8:38

[Comment From eugaeteugaet: ]

I have found myself getting irritated at times when it switched to combat mode...it delays the storyline.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:38 eugaet

8:38

[Comment From ifritifrit: ]

@crecente - in this day and age of insurmountable challenges and lengthy quests, it's a bit refreshing imo

Monday July 7, 2008 8:38 ifrit

8:38

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

@ crecente. that's probably the best feature of the game. simplicity can be a great gift to many complex games these days

Monday July 7, 2008 8:38 Guest

8:38

[Comment From itiswhatitisitiswhatitis: ]

I agree with crecente, but i started using the dodge a bunch, it was fun. Especially combo moves with Pey'j when he ground pounds and you get to knock a guy out with your staff

Monday July 7, 2008 8:38 itiswhatitis

8:38

[Comment From KitsunexusKitsunexus: ]

Wasn't the game DESIGNED with the story in mind? All games like that, the gameplay ALWAYS takes second spotlight.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:38 Kitsunexus

8:38

[Comment From UnrequitedUnrequited: ]

>skeptic Oh I hope not. It's way too easy as it stands... or stood.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:38 Unrequited

8:39

[Comment From unlovedhomieunlovedhomie: ]

and the gameplay is just to make a game . it would far worked better as a book or movie

Monday July 7, 2008 8:39 unlovedhomie

8:40

crecente:

That's an interesting idea. I think that we as gamers sometimes give games a pass on plot because we've come to expect so little. So to turn your answer around, unlovedhomie, would this game work as a book or a movie? So far the plot, while interesting, seems a little too generic to fly without the immersion of control.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:40 crecente

8:40

[Comment From ThePinkFloydWarThePinkFloydWar: ]

i think a book would be a bad idea but a movie would have appealed to alot of senses

Monday July 7, 2008 8:40 ThePinkFloydWar

8:40

[Comment From ZenGaijinZenGaijin: ]

I think as a book it could have really shined but the game seems to be trying to make a point. Gaming is still an experinmental medium. maybe they were trying to reach a large new audience with their message

Monday July 7, 2008 8:40 ZenGaijin

8:40

[Comment From GusherKidGusherKid: ]

@unlovedhomie: Books and movies like this have been done before. It's the interaction that makes it original.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:40 GusherKid

8:40

[Comment From Her Own MonsterHer Own Monster: ]

I disagree. There's something wonderful about going through it all with Jade- I understand why she cares about what she does, why she's so confused about who's side to be on. It's the only way this story can be "shown" and not "told", to use someone else

Monday July 7, 2008 8:40 Her Own Monster

8:40

[Comment From cskozmocskozmo: ]

I don't think it would have worked better as a book or movie because the story, while good for a game, is not anything special. So far it's pretty typical evil government stuff.Nothing other than the aesthetic of the world stands out to me..

Monday July 7, 2008 8:40 cskozmo

8:41

[Comment From SpiffynessSpiffyness: ]

Y'know, I was just thinking: although the gameplay seems a bit light, and it's rather simple and straightfoward, it's all very well designed and fun to play. Responsive controls, great dungeon design, all that good stuff, so it makes up for the simplicity (this is in response to the last question; I type slowly)

Monday July 7, 2008 8:41 Spiffyness

8:41

[Comment From NiruklacNiruklac: ]

A movie would still draw in many types, but a book may be too slow for the gamers of today.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:41 Niruklac

8:41

[Comment From inkyinky: ]

Being a game really helps you get into the story a lot more than you would if it was a movie. Controlling the main character makes you feel more connected to the world.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:41 inky

8:41

[Comment From BillkwandoBillkwando: ]

Yep, but comparitively, look at the Gnensis games we used to play where all we got was a paragragh at the beginmning and 2 manual pages to read in the bathroom

Monday July 7, 2008 8:41 Billkwando

8:41

[Comment From DejanusDejanus: ]

A movie would have to be animated or done with really good CG characters, the animal characters would not seem right to me as puppets.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:41 Dejanus

8:41

[Comment From ChainrxnChainrxn: ]

The plot so far lacks the subtlety that would be expected in a book or movie that would stand on its own as a story.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:41 Chainrxn

8:41

[Comment From DaveKapDaveKap: ]

The plot is too predictable at this point. I'm expecting a big twist at some point that I can't see coming, but unfortunately it would appear that the "Iris network is good, alpha squad is bad" is going to be the only twist.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:41 DaveKap

8:41

[Comment From ifritifrit: ]

I refuse to relegate games as a "lesser" art form, despite what Ebert may say. I think this works best as is

Monday July 7, 2008 8:41 ifrit

8:41

[Comment From MucudadadaMucudadada: ]

They are are totally seperate mediums. I don't think you can compare them.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:41 Mucudadada

8:42

[Comment From PhazonmasherPhazonmasher: ]

@Dejanus: BG&E would make a wonderful Jim Henson film in the vein of The Dark Crystal

Monday July 7, 2008 8:42 Phazonmasher

8:42

[Comment From ianovichianovich: ]

There is something to be said for discovery on the player's part as opposed to revelation on the director/author

Monday July 7, 2008 8:42 ianovich

8:44

crecente:

Ah the old push/pull argument. I never thought about games that way until Ken Levine starting talking about it with Bioshock. Movies and books are almost 100 percent push. They push everything at you and leave nothing but interpretation to the consumers. Games, on the other hand, have the ability to create without forcing a gamer to see everything. Games can, as with BioShock, fill a room with minutia and detail that will perhaps never be viewed by a gamer if they don't want to view it.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:44 crecente

8:45

crecente:

I think one of the biggest differences between gaming and other mediums is this pull element. Sure it's a form of interaction, but a much more subtle one.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:45 crecente

8:45

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

@ Crecente: and I love that so damn much. I spend as much time as possible seeking out Doom audio logs and tapes in Bioshock.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:45 Speegle

8:45

[Comment From ZenGaijinZenGaijin: ]

Thats only if its done right though Crecente

Monday July 7, 2008 8:45 ZenGaijin

8:45

[Comment From KitsunexusKitsunexus: ]

BG&E had a better story than Bioshock, IMO

Monday July 7, 2008 8:45 Kitsunexus

8:45

[Comment From DaveKapDaveKap: ]

Ah but a game first has to have those discoverable elements at all. This being an older game feels as though it could have had more to pull that doesn't actually exist.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:45 DaveKap

8:45

[Comment From UnrequitedUnrequited: ]

That's an excellent point, in terms of appreciating the story, but it's just as applicable in appreciating the amount of work which has gone into the backstory. I myself ended up looking for the latin root-words when I would take a new species.... most often than not, even though they were made up (of course) the roots were there.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:45 Unrequited

8:46

[Comment From Netjive8Netjive8: ]

@crecente: I couldn't agree more.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:46 Netjive8

8:46

[Comment From Blah8Blah8: ]

Yep, that's one of the best features games can take advantage of, and why I tend to take longer through most games.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:46 Blah8

8:46

[Comment From SpiffynessSpiffyness: ]

Yeah, I really like the Bioshock/Metroid Prime/etc. type of design: the game's story is as present as you want it to be. The more the gamer puts into the game, the more he gets out of it. Final Fantasy VI is an example of this mechanic going in a different direction: all of the character development in the second half of the game is completely optional, but it's rewarding. At the same time, if you don't care for a particular character then you don't have to sit through a boring plot for them.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:46 Spiffyness

8:46

[Comment From SpoonyBardSpoonyBard: ]

Let's not forget that System Shock and Ultima Underworld did it long before Bioshock as well.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:46 SpoonyBard

8:46

[Comment From pROvIspROvIs: ]

Which brings us to a different question in the evolution of interactive games as story telling devices. This really has only recently become a viable form to convey a story and we havent seen many developers take advantage of it and when they do it seems to come up short on either gameplay or the story feels rushed. Is it possible for a game to convey a story without cinematics and taking away the players freedom of choice? Although Bioshock does a decent job of it even it seems to topple off at the end

Monday July 7, 2008 8:46 pROvIs

8:47

[Comment From TheGamestaTheGamesta: ]

@crecente same thing is done with comics and manga though. What is different about games is that we run the possibility of "missing" a story element due to the consequences of our actions in the game.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:47 TheGamesta

8:47

[Comment From ifritifrit: ]

that in and of itself allows the player to read what they will into it, and works really well with something like BG&E

Monday July 7, 2008 8:47 ifrit

8:48

[Comment From Sensai-NSensai-N: ]

And in games, you can "push" as much as you want. Think of all of the content in the books you can find in World of Warcraft that reveals more of the game world and its lore.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:48 Sensai-N

8:48

[Comment From Sparky ClarksonSparky Clarkson: ]

There's plenty to discover in this world. For instance, who has found the giant dead DomZ? Also, consider that all the conversations with the townsfolk are optional. You are choosing to encounter much of this world.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:48 Sparky Clarkson

8:48

[Comment From tehteh: ]

I agree with the pull, but I'd say that games and books both share the distinction of requiring user interpretation. True, you can't deviate too far from a book's story, but it requires you to generate all of the visual imagery, focusing on the aspects you find important. With games, it's much the same in that the story that resonates is the on that you focus on.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:48 teh

8:48

[Comment From DejanusDejanus: ]

Bioshock's story was really better inmy eyes due to the lack of predictability, at the endyouare still not sure what is right, who is wrong. In this game I already have a clear idea only an hour or two in.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:48 Dejanus

8:48

[Comment From ZenGaijinZenGaijin: ]

So your asking is there a silent film type niche for the gaming community pROvIs?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:48 ZenGaijin

8:48

[Comment From ThePinkFloydWarThePinkFloydWar: ]

The good thing about bio shock is the suspense it pulls and how u can interact with ur environments

Monday July 7, 2008 8:48 ThePinkFloydWar

8:48

[Comment From MainmanMainman: ]

Now there's a thought. What will the sequel add to the atmosphere and mechanics of BG&E that were avoided or couldn't be done in the original?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:48 Mainman

8:48

[Comment From itiswhatitisitiswhatitis: ]

I just answered the poll, and even though this is my first time playing BG&E i new about it since it was released but was too busy at the time to play it and never got around to it, but since hearing of the sequel i just tracked down a copy and am siked to be playing it now

Monday July 7, 2008 8:48 itiswhatitis

8:48

[Comment From InterstellaInterstella: ]

@crecente: thats what i meant by perceptions. and as the guy up there said with then sega genesis or old nes games, no explanation was needed what we seen is what we needed and the rest we interpreted it, like those cool pacman interpretations you have posted at times... woderful stuff.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:48 Interstella

8:49

[Comment From DaveKapDaveKap: ]

If there's more to discover, I haven't figured it out yet because the game seems rather insistent that I get to the next checkpoint (and I wanted to make sure to finish it specifically to the point required by this club, so perhaps that has limited me)

Monday July 7, 2008 8:49 DaveKap

8:49

[Comment From KitsunexusKitsunexus: ]

OK so why didn't Ubisoft just make everybody happy and make BG&E a text adventure/FMV game?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:49 Kitsunexus

8:49

[Comment From pROvIspROvIs: ]

@ZenGaijin: Not silent film but dont take away a players ability to control the character. Dont dictate a story through video but let them interact, interpret and discover it. it seems much more organic

Monday July 7, 2008 8:49 pROvIs

8:51

crecente:

OK one last question before we wrap things up officially for the night.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:51 crecente

8:52

[Comment From ChainrxnChainrxn: ]

Question: Given that the game was not as well received commercially as it was critically, do people have a harder time enjoying non-standard fantasy/sci-fi settings?

Monday July 7, 2008 8:52 Chainrxn

8:53

[Comment From ifritifrit: ]

commercially it came out at a bad time

Monday July 7, 2008 8:53 ifrit

8:53

[Comment From CulebraCulebra: ]

I think the art style may have put people off.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:53 Culebra

8:53

[Comment From The NickrossThe Nickross: ]

I think history shows again and again that mainstream gaming is unwilling to accept female protagonists.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:53 The Nickross

8:53

[Comment From GusherKidGusherKid: ]

Nah, most people just don't play what they don't hear hyped up by MTV.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:53 GusherKid

8:53

[Comment From TheGamestaTheGamesta: ]

I always thought the reason BG&E failed was due to marketing, not the setting or style of the game.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:53 TheGamesta

8:54

[Comment From dawimp523dawimp523: ]

I think people have a harder time taking risks on games they don't know as much about, like Boom Blox. A great game, but only 60,000 units so far.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:54 dawimp523

8:54

[Comment From Netjive8Netjive8: ]

I think it makes the few people who DO play it enjoy it that much more.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:54 Netjive8

8:54

[Comment From pROvIspROvIs: ]

Unfortunately, I feel like Beyond Good and Evil fails in the same way Psyconauts did. Although they are both critically acclaimed and considered cult classics they fail to convince any demographic of their worth. Kids don't buy it because there seems to be a lack of depth and adults dont buy it because without prior knowledge it looks like a kids game

Monday July 7, 2008 8:54 pROvIs

8:55

[Comment From Tyber_ZannTyber_Zann: ]

This can probably relate to media/advertising, ironically enough. I don't think it was pushed enough at launch. Then again, games like these don't attract nearly enough people as say, Halo or Madden, sadly.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:55 Tyber_Zann

8:55

[Comment From TheGamestaTheGamesta: ]

I'm a huge fan of hidden gems like these. And like Netjive8 says, it definitely makes the experience more special when you know only a fortunate few have shared that experience.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:55 TheGamesta

8:55

[Comment From BillkwandoBillkwando: ]

As I said before, my wife said "it 's like they were trying to make a Disney game"

Monday July 7, 2008 8:55 Billkwando

8:56

[Comment From Netjive8Netjive8: ]

Deep engrossing games like this will hopefully become more common in the future.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:56 Netjive8

8:56

[Comment From CulebraCulebra: ]

Well, people do want their games to be 'fun'. A storytelling game simply doesnt seem fun to the mainstream gamer. A lot of people just want to sit down, blow shit up, and relax.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:56 Culebra

8:56

[Comment From inkyinky: ]

I had always heard that there was an intention to create a trilogy of BGaE games, which was scrapped with the commercial failure of the first. However, the resurgence of people buying it on Steam and buying it after hearing about how such a great game failed made it more viable.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:56 inky

8:56

[Comment From MainmanMainman: ]

The adverts for BG&E seemed to emphasise the combat and moments of infiltration; two of the games weakest points. My guess is that they tried to appeal to the people who were more interested in those genres, and simultaneously failed to garner much attention from either audience.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:56 Mainman

8:57

[Comment From DaveKapDaveKap: ]

I'd like to see how well the game sold once it was put on Steam. I'm willing to bet word of mouth and Steam marketing are what helped boost its sales to the point that they have greenlit the sequel.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:57 DaveKap

8:57

[Comment From pROvIspROvIs: ]

Unfortunately because of the increase in development costs these games are going to be less and less common as developers cannot afford for a AAA game to bomb at retail. Because of this they are less open to creative or even different ideas and we have our current epidemic of sequels and offshoots

Monday July 7, 2008 8:57 pROvIs

8:57

[Comment From Netjive8Netjive8: ]

@mainman: Excellent point.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:57 Netjive8

8:57

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

It's sad that many developers (see: Halo) rely on supplemental materials like the Nylund novels in order to provide story.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:57 Speegle

8:57

[Comment From DelahuntDelahunt: ]

You can always hope for that Netjive8, but it's looking like less and less games of this quirky nature will be around. It's too risky to invest into something of this nature. Psychonauts was to a degree lucky, as it gained some momentum later on, but people seem to remember the BGE's before the Psychonauts.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:57 Delahunt

8:58

[Comment From Tyber_ZannTyber_Zann: ]

@Culebra - totally agree, but then again, as an avid 'blow shit up' kind of gamer, I was blown away (no pun intended) by this game. I'm not even into adventure games very much, and this made a believer out of me. Bad first impressions, but this is a prime example of how not to judge a game by its cover.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:58 Tyber_Zann

8:59	Are the themes found in Beyond Good & Evil relevant to today? Yes ( 91% ) No ( 9% ) Monday July 7, 2008 8:59

8:59

[Comment From dawimp523dawimp523: ]

BG&E is REALLY lucky it's getting a sequel, and so are we. Ubisoft must have REALLY loved this game as much as we do!

Monday July 7, 2008 8:59 dawimp523

8:59

[Comment From SpiffynessSpiffyness: ]

@Culebra: actually, I disagree. You'd be surprised at the level of tolerance for "story" among the common target-audience. Anyone is able to appreciate a good story; it's merely a matter of making the story accessible and providing a clean hook to get people's attention. And that's something that games are phemomenally bad at: hooking the player. We gamers usually only keep on playing games that start out slowly because a) they cost a lot, and b) we know from experience that most games get better as they go. Only a select few games have gripped me from the start (and sequels don't count', cause they have the benefit of emotional attachment to characters and whatnot before they even begin

Monday July 7, 2008 8:59 Spiffyness

8:59

[Comment From MucudadadaMucudadada: ]

@Delahunt: I think quirky games will make a comeback. LittleBigPlanet seems to be leading the march.

Monday July 7, 2008 8:59 Mucudadada

9:00

[Comment From Lian_KazairlLian_Kazairl: ]

To an extent, I think people are used to some very old cliches when it comes to gaming and sci-fi in general. It seems that big budget, action-packed, scientifically unsound series like Star Wars and Halo do a lot better, even in their first iterations, than the more subtle thought provoking titles like...oh...say, Event Horizon and BG&E. As for the game in question, I honestly think marketing (or lack thereof) had more to do with it than the kind of sci-fi action it was showcasing.

Monday July 7, 2008 9:00 Lian_Kazairl

9:00

[Comment From BillkwandoBillkwando: ]

It is kinda Shenmuesque with the photography, fighting, exploration, and investigation.

Monday July 7, 2008 9:00 Billkwando

9:00

[Comment From MainmanMainman: ]

I pray that the gaming industry doesn't become totally driven by groups of 'Hollywood' studios. Hell, depending on who you ask, it's already happened.

Monday July 7, 2008 9:00 Mainman

9:00

[Comment From TheGamestaTheGamesta: ]

If anyone wants a perfect example of story tolerance in gaming... look no further than the success of MGS4

Monday July 7, 2008 9:00 TheGamesta

9:00

[Comment From riquedriqued: ]

I don't think there was a barrier for quirk games, there is lack of creativity in the industry IMO

Monday July 7, 2008 9:00 riqued

9:01

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

The nature of games is cyclical. There will be a period of affinity for death and shooting, and then a period like now when we prize sneaking, puzzles, and Miyamoto games in general.

Monday July 7, 2008 9:01 Speegle

9:01

[Comment From unlovedhomieunlovedhomie: ]

but it also has the sony push being 1st party. bge2 would do much better on the will. cheaper to make and more of the customers that your selling to

Monday July 7, 2008 9:01 unlovedhomie

9:01

[Comment From cskozmocskozmo: ]

@Lian_Kazairl Event Horizon wasn't a movie I would consider thought provoking.

Monday July 7, 2008 9:01 cskozmo

9:01

[Comment From ifritifrit: ]

@riqued - lack of creativity, or drive for commerce?

Monday July 7, 2008 9:01 ifrit

9:01

[Comment From inkyinky: ]

The problem with unconventional games is that they have a hard time reaching a mass audience. It makes more financial sense to go by a tried and true formula (see most of the FPS genre) than to try to find a market for a strange game.

Monday July 7, 2008 9:01 inky

9:01

[Comment From fishghostfishghost: ]

BG&E is a perfect example of post-modern literature, as in the story.

Monday July 7, 2008 9:01 fishghost

9:01

[Comment From SkelatorSkelator: ]

@riqued- While i agree with you mostly, you have overlooked the wii. A TON of great creative quirky games have come out for it: Elebits, Boomblox etc etc

Monday July 7, 2008 9:01 Skelator

9:02

crecente:

Alrighty. I'm afraid I'm going to have to wrap things up. It's been a lot of fun and I think this mechanic works WAY better for Game Club then did our 30-person cap Campfire. As of right now we have about 400 people in the chat.

Monday July 7, 2008 9:02 crecente

9:02

crecente:

Couple of house keeping things

Monday July 7, 2008 9:02 crecente

9:02

crecente:

First this entire chat will be archived in the post. So you can go back and read it if you came in late. Also please feel free to continue the discussion among yourselves on the site in the poste.

Monday July 7, 2008 9:02 crecente

9:03

crecente:

http://kotaku.com/5022757/game-club-beyond-good--evil-discussion-one

Monday July 7, 2008 9:03 crecente

9:03

crecente:

Next week's meeting is going to have to be postponed due to E3. So our next meeting will be on July 21. (A Monday)

Monday July 7, 2008 9:03 crecente

9:04

crecente:

I'll make sure to get up assignment two by the end of the week. Hopefully in the next day or two.

Monday July 7, 2008 9:04 crecente

9:04

crecente:

Let me know in comments over on the site what you guys thought of all of this. I'm still tweaking and am very interested in your opinions. I'll make sure to come a little more prepared for our next meeting as well.

Monday July 7, 2008 9:04 crecente

9:05

crecente:

Thanks again everyone for participating and I look forward to talking more about the game and its deeper meanings later this month.

Monday July 7, 2008 9:05 crecente

9:05

crecente:

Night

Monday July 7, 2008 9:05 crecente

9:05