Game Club Beyond Good & Evil Discussion 2

(07/22/2008)

8:31

crecente:

OK, we're going to start in 10 minutes or so

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:31 crecente

8:32

crecente:

Sure

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:32 crecente

8:32	I was deeply disappointed that Beyond Good & Evil 2 wasn't shown at E3. True ( 85% ) False ( 15% ) Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:32

8:34

crecente:

Once we get started just type in your questions for the group or your answer for whatever happens to be the current subject.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:34 crecente

8:34

crecente:

Keep in mind to participate in the club you have to use our live chat

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:34 crecente

8:37

crecente:

Five more minutes or so before we kick off

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:37 crecente

8:42

crecente:

OK time to get started

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:42 crecente

8:43

crecente:

Let's start by opening the floor to a reader question. If you have one just drop it into the chat and I'll pick one to kick off the discussion.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:43 crecente

8:43

crecente:

And keep in mind this is just to discuss the game's deeper meanings and such.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:43 crecente

8:44

[Comment From yashichi8bityashichi8bit: ]

So how did everyone like/dislike the character set of the game. It was fairly diverse from what I remember

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:44 yashichi8bit

8:44

crecente:

I think it's rather interesting that so far the game still has such a small group of central characters. Three right now really.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:44 crecente

8:45

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

They're all diverse, yet "cutesy".

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:45 Guest

8:45

[Comment From Jagged ToasterJagged Toaster: ]

I did like the diversity, seeing how humans interacted with animals and robots.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:45 Jagged Toaster

8:45

[Comment From BubblewhipBubblewhip: ]

how so?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:45 Bubblewhip

8:45

crecente:

It is interesting that they don't really make a big deal out of having a female lead.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:45 crecente

8:46

[Comment From TeragTerag: ]

I didnt care for double H, i mean i didnt hate him, but he annoyed me with his boy scout ways, I LOVE pay'j and jade though, Jades character alone is just a great character, very rebellious, courageous, and strong

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:46 Terag

8:46

[Comment From NickNick: ]

The different races didn't seem to me to be very realistic. They were a bit too cartoony.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:46 Nick

8:46

[Comment From npnp: ]

4 characters if you include the hovercraft ;).

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:46 np

8:46

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

I like the set because they seem to genuinely care about one another. See previous discussion's "victory hug" section.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:46 Guest

8:46

[Comment From blue_jeepblue_jeep: ]

I'm surprised nobody has compared the character set to Ratchet and Clank yet.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:46 blue_jeep

8:46

[Comment From BubblewhipBubblewhip: ]

I think Jade is a very good female role model. Strong, brave, and has her share of emotion to her.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:46 Bubblewhip

8:46

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Exactly, the seamless interaction between animals and humans just brings a smile to my face.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:46 Guest

8:47

crecente:

Does the fact that Pay'J isn't human make you feel more or less concerned about him when he is captured? I guess I'm asking, do you care at all that he's been captured?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:47 crecente

8:47

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Did Double H remind anyone else of the Tick?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:47 Speegle

8:47

[Comment From Darris PrattDarris Pratt: ]

Jade was very unique as a main character.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:47 Darris Pratt

8:47

[Comment From TeragTerag: ]

Although i do feel that the characters can get too wacky and cartoony. The part where Pay'J leaves u the message, i think i was supposed to feel sad there, but I saw a talking pig and instantly lost all sadness.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:47 Terag

8:47

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

I find it hard to hate the enemies in this game too... I just want to give them a hug.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:47 Guest

8:47

[Comment From BubblewhipBubblewhip: ]

Well Jade's emotion and empathy really makes that loss emotional.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:47 Bubblewhip

8:48

crecente:

I think they did a fairly good job of building up Pay'J's character, but the relationship between the two, left unexplained, really feels to lessen the impact of Pay'J disappearance

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:48 crecente

8:48

crecente:

At least for me

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:48 crecente

8:48

[Comment From RavncatRavncat: ]

I did care that Pey`j had been captured, I definitely agree with bubblewhip

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:48 Ravncat

8:48

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Terag: Yeah...I am a total wuss (teared up big time when the twins in FFIV turned themselves stone) but I didn't really feel that sad when I watched the message either.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:48 Speegle

8:48

[Comment From sapphsapph: ]

The Cd that Pay left to Jade made me care alitlle more about him

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:48 sapph

8:49

[Comment From KitsunexusKitsunexus: ]

Alyx from HL2 I felt had more emotion than Jade, funny, since she's basically a Jade rip-off

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:49 Kitsunexus

8:49

[Comment From Some GuySome Guy: ]

Good Point

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:49 Some Guy

8:49

[Comment From GregoriusGregorius: ]

I think they way in which you relied on Pey'J for support in the actual gameplay contributes to the sense of loss.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:49 Gregorius

8:49

crecente:

Oh, that's a really good point. The fact that you can't rely on him any more as support does remind you he isn't with you anymore and that you're alone.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:49 crecente

8:50

[Comment From TeragTerag: ]

I can agree with that, it would be sadder if the relationship was explained really. They didnt go into too much depth

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:50 Terag

8:50

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Yes, Pey'J was actually useful, without getting in the way. He wasn't your standard companion so to speak.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:50 Guest

8:50

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

It was nice how Jade was more pissed than sad when he went missing.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:50 Speegle

8:50

[Comment From GusherKidGusherKid: ]

Is anyone still suspicious of IRIS? It seems pretty clear cut who the good guys are at this point.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:50 GusherKid

8:51

crecente:

I think that the more you get involved with IRIS the more of their take on things you are bound to hear. Is it possible, this far into the game, that everything you've seen and heard has been misunderstood. I'm leaning toward no.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:51 crecente

8:51

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

I lost my suspicions when we met HH

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:51 Speegle

8:52

[Comment From WildRileWildRile: ]

I want to be suspicious of IRIS, because Beyond Good and Evil as a title leads me to want to have a moral dilemma

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:52 WildRile

8:52

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

I thought it was pretty obvious who the bad/good guys are

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:52 Guest

8:53

crecente:

I have to say that I expected or, I guess, still expect moral ambguity in the game. But so far it's more about not realizing initially who is good and who is bad

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:53 crecente

8:53

[Comment From RavncatRavncat: ]

I haven`t had any suspicions seeing as how Iris has used the photographs that we have taken, It couldve been interesting if Iris has used our photographs in a more underhanded manner

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:53 Ravncat

8:53

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

I mean, there's protesters in the streets, and a bunch of propaganda videos playing

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:53 Guest

8:53

[Comment From blue_jeepblue_jeep: ]

I don't think they could flip flop at this point in the game either. We already learned the "protectors" aren't really what they're supposed to be.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:53 blue_jeep

8:54

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

I never really doubted the IRIS

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:54 Guest

8:54

[Comment From GregoriusGregorius: ]

Obvious to the player, who the good and bad guys are, because we know we're playing a video game and so inevitably there must be some bad guy, but I can see how the characters in the game might find the definitions of good and evil in their world a little more ambiguous.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:54 Gregorius

8:54

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Man, it would be great if IRIS misused the intel.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:54 Speegle

8:54

[Comment From Some GuySome Guy: ]

Was anyone irritated be the fact that they didn't really let you see more of the effects of the DomZ presence on other worlds?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:54 Some Guy

8:54

crecente:

I can't help but think of Nietzsche's book

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:54 crecente

8:56

crecente:

In it he basically says, for those of you unfamiliar, that we should move beyond good and evil, leaving behind traditional morality, for something more rooted in consequences

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:56 crecente

8:56

crecente:

Kinda like the end justifies the means... sorta

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:56 crecente

8:56

[Comment From GraizurGraizur: ]

The name could use some work. "Beyond Good and Evil" is . imo, pretentiois and not descriptive of the game.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:56 Graizur

8:56

[Comment From WildRileWildRile: ]

Some Guy: I was. You feel like your cast into the middle of this grand conflict, but only really see the effects in a small city

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:56 WildRile

8:57

[Comment From Zombie_MoogleZombie_Moogle: ]

who's ends are justified?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:57 Zombie_Moogle

8:57

crecente:

Thats the thing, we don't know. Id like to think that we're going to discover that there is some larger moral message or struggle at play in the game

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:57 crecente

8:57

[Comment From GregoriusGregorius: ]

I think the game has very little to do with Nietzsche other than borrowing the title really. Nietzsche suggest we abandon traditional views of right and wrong and construct our own, whereas in the game the DomZ seem to be evil just because they are. Like they were born evil or something. Is an explanation ever given for why the DomZ are doing what they're doing?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:57 Gregorius

8:57

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Yeah, but Nietzche was a loon. His theories are like Communism. Fine on paper...

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:57 Speegle

8:58

[Comment From GraizurGraizur: ]

Basically "Beyond Good and Evil" should have been the motivations for the enemies and main villian. In the end they sort of seemed like satan worshipers or death worshipers

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:58 Graizur

8:58

[Comment From RavncatRavncat: ]

I think that is where the root of the moral dillema`s in the game are, It`s pretty clear to the player who is good and bad, as we seem to be prejudiced against propoganda from school. But in a way, isn`t there good being served by the system, at least to those who aren`t "taken" by it?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:58 Ravncat

8:59

crecente:

Do you think a game should live up to its title. I hate to game jump, but it is on point. Look at Too Human, which happens to start with a quote from a Nietzche aphorism

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:59 crecente

8:59

[Comment From blue_jeepblue_jeep: ]

I agree with grazier, the title is a little big for it's britches.I just don't expect this game to show the depth of moral ambiguity we've even begun to expect from movies, mainstream or not.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 8:59 blue_jeep

9:00

[Comment From NickNick: ]

Too Human does seem to have something to do with it's title. it indicates that the character is choosing to become "too human" rather than be more cybernetically enhanced

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:00 Nick

9:00

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

That system would "work" so long as the introductory period of havoc was short and brutal, followed by liberation. The domz are dragging it out, looks like.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:00 Speegle

9:00

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

I think the title perfectly describes the game BEFORE you find out who's good and evil.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:00 Guest

9:00

[Comment From DukeDuke: ]

Yes, a game needs to have a real connection with its title. There are many series that use the title somewhere in the dialogue, but when a game uses the title in a clever way and it means more that just the literal sense or something like that, it adds a little something extra to the overall experience.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:00 Duke

9:01

[Comment From GraizurGraizur: ]

When I became responsible for an entire apartment (7 rooms) I realized it's easier to be a hypocrite when you have some power. If Jade worked for the Gov't then she would see how hard that job is... keeping the peace or not choosing sides or having fair judgments or not showing favoritism

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:01 Graizur

9:01

[Comment From WildRileWildRile: ]

The title is what you have to go on most of the time. It's your first impression 99% of the time. Some games are ambiguous from the title, like Halo. But something like Beyond Good and Evil think of a game with a moral quandary. It's too straight forward here for the title.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:01 WildRile

9:01

[Comment From NickNick: ]

While beyond good and evil seems to want us to do just that, look beyond viewing any action as either good or evil. This game doesn't seem to do that, it just puts us in a conflict where we know what path we must take to live.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:01 Nick

9:01

[Comment From RavncatRavncat: ]

I have to wonder if we are reading too much into what the title Beyond good and evil meant. What is beyond good and evil? It seems if we are too stuck on looking at good and evil, and not, beyond what is good and evil.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:01 Ravncat

9:01

[Comment From marvmarv: ]

The title is meaningless marketing. I don't have any expectations based on a title.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:01 marv

9:02

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Although the game itself has a pretty cut and dry view of "Good and Evil," which goes against the title, the title DOES lend an air of mystery, a sense of finding out what's what, which the game delivers

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:02 Guest

9:02

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Marv: Seconded.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:02 Speegle

9:02

[Comment From blue_jeepblue_jeep: ]

...of course think of my shock and awe when and if this game does throw me for a moral loop. Ha!

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:02 blue_jeep

9:03

[Comment From GraizurGraizur: ]

Maybe the ending with it's Jade mystery will bring that into the light for us. Maybe the Domz have some sort of benificiary effect.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:03 Graizur

9:03

[Comment From Some GuySome Guy: ]

Ravncat: Perhaps more basing decisions on morality?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:03 Some Guy

9:03

crecente:

OK, total change of subject. But was everyone else as shocked as I was when the game took such a sudden turn into such dark ideas: The torturing of HH, the bodies...

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:03 crecente

9:03

[Comment From LordxMugenLordxMugen: ]

i was shocked cause at first it seemed like such a fanciful game

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:03 LordxMugen

9:04

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Mmmm...no. I expected it to be worse. But the Alpha's faces were pretty freaky.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:04 Speegle

9:04

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

To Mod: Yes i was as shocked as you were, complete twist from what was goin on

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:04 Guest

9:04

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Not really, I felt it was brewing underneath all the happy and shiny lies

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:04 Guest

9:04

[Comment From DukeDuke: ]

Yes I was surprised.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:04 Duke

9:04

[Comment From PezdispenserPezdispenser: ]

Not me, I couldn't stop laughing when I killed my first Alpha Section. *flies away slowly* :)

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:04 Pezdispenser

9:04

[Comment From NickNick: ]

The game had an air around the bad guys from the start, leading to an obvious reveal that they were not as "good" for the people as they were showing.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:04 Nick

9:04

[Comment From blue_jeepblue_jeep: ]

yeah, that was a little "heavy" for such a cartoony experience. Dichotomy, maybe?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:04 blue_jeep

9:04

[Comment From Zombie_MoogleZombie_Moogle: ]

the player was lead to believe that anything could happen when they infiltrated the Alpha bases

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:04 Zombie_Moogle

9:04

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

I dunno, for some reason it seemed completely obvious. There wasn't any real foreshadowing, no reason for me to believe that it would be like that, but I sort of expected it. Probably because of the whole "reporter" angle, I figured you'd report on horrible atrocities.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:04 Guest

9:04

[Comment From GregoriusGregorius: ]

I think the game laid the footwork for its dark turn at the beginning when the children were taken inside the DomZ. I think it suggested it could all turn very sinister very quickly.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:04 Gregorius

9:05

[Comment From BoomstaBoomsta: ]

Well, it was already dark to an extent. For instance, the first time you fight the DomZ the kidnapped children are shown being suspended in the bodies of the DomZ that you fight.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:05 Boomsta

9:05

[Comment From Jagged ToasterJagged Toaster: ]

This was foreshadowed at the very beginning of the game, when the creatures rise from the ground and capture some of the animals from the lighthouse.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:05 Jagged Toaster

9:05

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Well, it's not like the player's were going to get a hug and cookies when they infiltrated the base

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:05 Guest

9:05

[Comment From GraizurGraizur: ]

I sort of, well not expected it, but it was a GOOD twist in the story.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:05 Graizur

9:05

[Comment From hyakutaro ichimonjihyakutaro ichimonji: ]

it went from somewhat innocent to a sortof grim fairytale. it was a shock, but somewhat fitting also (to echo previous comments, i suppose).

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:05 hyakutaro ichimonji

9:06

[Comment From SpiffynessSpiffyness: ]

Also, Pey'j foreshadows the true nature of the Alpha Sections simply by his incredulity and distrust. We intrinsicly are drawn to Pey'j by his relationship with Jade, so if he doesn't trust them then neither do we

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:06 Spiffyness

9:07

[Comment From WildRileWildRile: ]

The point about not actually killing the Alphas is an interesting one though. Alpha's really only die when they fall off of platforms. On your own, you never seem to kill something with the same intellect as Jade.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:07 WildRile

9:07

Luke Plunkett:

Hey everyone, sorry I'm late!

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:07 Luke Plunkett

9:08

crecente:

I was particularly surprised about the torture. Again, it seems to unwittingly echo recent events. Kinda creepy

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:08 crecente

9:08

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

It changed the childish view of the game

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:08 Guest

9:08

[Comment From NickNick: ]

Torture has always been in this world. The fact that the US has fallen to using it was not a connection I see.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:08 Nick

9:09

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Crecente: yeah, but government cover-ups and torture and mass deceit are always going to be timely.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:09 Speegle

9:09

[Comment From NickNick: ]

But you have to wonder, if they truly were doing this for good, what their incentive was to torture, if not just for torture's sake.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:09 Nick

9:10

crecente:

Yeah, actually, it's like they just left HH plugged in to the torture machine and someone forgot to turn it off.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:10 crecente

9:10

[Comment From KitsunexusKitsunexus: ]

To the guest that said it changed the "childish" view of the game, that's only true if you went into the game thinking it was childish.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:10 Kitsunexus

9:10

[Comment From blue_jeepblue_jeep: ]

@ Nick...but an interesting and poignant one to make.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:10 blue_jeep

9:10

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Nick: I think that the Domz are portrayed as just evil mother effers without any particular motivation other then...evil.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:10 Speegle

9:10

[Comment From GraizurGraizur: ]

We don't know enough about the domz is a universal stance after the game is done.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:10 Graizur

9:10

[Comment From WildRileWildRile: ]

The torture questions brings us back to the question of what is the DomZ goal?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:10 WildRile

9:11

[Comment From GraizurGraizur: ]

That sort of hints at the benevolent vs malevolent nature.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:11 Graizur

9:11

[Comment From GusherKidGusherKid: ]

But the DomZ are just monsters that don't speak! What's to think that they have a goal?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:11 GusherKid

9:12

crecente:

Would it be amazing if the game ended with you realizing that IRIS were the tyrants and the DomZ the good guys.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:12 crecente

9:12

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Graizur: Good point! If there is inherent good, must there be inherent evil? "They called me mister glass."

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:12 Speegle

9:12

[Comment From blue_jeepblue_jeep: ]

Totalitarianism?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:12 blue_jeep

9:12

[Comment From WildRileWildRile: ]

Are they misunderstood, trying to unite the universe together like what happened in ancient China? Or are they just trying to rule to rule, like the Empire in Star Wars?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:12 WildRile

9:12

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Sort of Bioshock ?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:12 Guest

9:12

[Comment From NickNick: ]

No, I don't think I could ever accept a game with that kind of twist.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:12 Nick

9:13

Luke Plunkett:

Crecente: not really. The way the game plays out, that'd seem like a bit of a cheap twist

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:13 Luke Plunkett

9:13

crecente:

I think game developers are often too worried about stepping outside the norm, it leads games to the same place most movies are. Often boring

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:13 crecente

9:13

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Plunkett: Seconded.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:13 Speegle

9:13

[Comment From RavncatRavncat: ]

Crecente, I don`t know, I think it would be interesting if there were no tyrants, and you realized that both sides are both good and evil, in different ways

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:13 Ravncat

9:13

[Comment From SpiffynessSpiffyness: ]

I think that the DomZ are doing their whole kidnapping shindig because they need brainwashed soldiers to fight some other alien race

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:13 Spiffyness

9:14

[Comment From dawimp523dawimp523: ]

If that happened, my brain would rupture from shock!

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:14 dawimp523

9:14

[Comment From NickNick: ]

Outside the norm is exciting! Coffee cooloer kind of moments.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:14 Nick

9:14

[Comment From GraizurGraizur: ]

Although in real life I doubt people would want to be free of the conviniences of civilization.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:14 Graizur

9:14

Luke Plunkett:

BG&E is outside of the norm enough already without having to worry about going any further :)

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:14 Luke Plunkett

9:15

crecente:

Im still fascinated with the photography mechanic. That's the greatest thing about the game, that they are essentially telling you that in some ways the pen is mightier than the sword. Yes, I know, it's a camera not a pen, but that's the point they're making

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:15 crecente

9:15

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Sigh...I can't remeber the last game that *really* surprised me. Like "Samus is a chick" level surprise.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:15 Speegle

9:15

[Comment From GraizurGraizur: ]

I actually lived with a bunch of rebel journalists

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:15 Graizur

9:16

[Comment From Some GuySome Guy: ]

Was anyone a tad annoyed by the fact that the general public took so long to react to the activities of the Alphas when it was repeatedly showed what they were doing by Jade and IRIS?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:16 Some Guy

9:16

Luke Plunkett:

true. though it could have been implemented much better. After a while it becomes a frustrating chore, since its only really a supplement to the combat, not a replacement/alternative

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:16 Luke Plunkett

9:16

[Comment From RavncatRavncat: ]

It`s interesting that the photography mechanic is also used to get you money, it`s like the Domz dont have interest in your photographs, money or even pearls...

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:16 Ravncat

9:17

crecente:

Totally, I was sorta annoyed them made the "pen" literally mightier than the "sword" (staff). Was that to drive home the point to stupid gamers?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:17 crecente

9:17

[Comment From SpiffynessSpiffyness: ]

@some guy: I think the idea is that the public is dense and need a lot of convincing to believe the truth. ALSO, the Alphas probably did multiple cover-up stories to combat IRIS

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:17 Spiffyness

9:17

[Comment From GregoriusGregorius: ]

Some Guy, some would say the American public has been shockingly slow to react, and yes, it's incredibly annoying.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:17 Gregorius

9:17

[Comment From Jagged ToasterJagged Toaster: ]

The camera also acts as a, in my opinion, better and more unique way to gain currency, rather than running around like Pacman.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:17 Jagged Toaster

9:17

[Comment From NickNick: ]

I did not like how the photography was used. sure, it allowed you to feel like an investigative reporter, but you never saw your results. you neevr saw people exclaim outrage over what was revealed.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:17 Nick

9:18

[Comment From RavncatRavncat: ]

some guy, i just took the reaction time to be that it was hard for the information to get through and that propoganda was fighting it. it just took awhile for the truth to come above the propaganda imo

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:18 Ravncat

9:18

[Comment From SpiffynessSpiffyness: ]

I thought the photography was brilliant. It combines the "collectible" aspect of any good action-adventure with plot-advancement (earning pearls to buy parts) and character improvement (money)

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:18 Spiffyness

9:18

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Crecente: You're looking too deep.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:18 Speegle

9:18

[Comment From KitsunexusKitsunexus: ]

BG&E's photography mechanic isn't as well integrated into the gameplay as say, Fatal Frame, but it's a not an pointless afterthought like in MGS. It's a happy medium.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:18 Kitsunexus

9:18

[Comment From RavncatRavncat: ]

Yeah, the photography was really related to money and taking pictures of random animals, I wouldve liked to see it more implemented within the story itself, sure its there.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:18 Ravncat

9:19

[Comment From NickNick: ]

The photography was just in place as an excuse to put in collection quests. And the game hand-walked you through what constituted "blasphemous" news via the radio from the mayor.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:19 Nick

9:19

Luke Plunkett:

Nick: EXACTLY. It would have been nice to get something tangible out of your work, see the media printing your photos, or the average person seeing them. Would have made it feel less like a gimmick.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:19 Luke Plunkett

9:20

crecente:

I still think they could have had you turn in a story with it as well. Or do a broadcast. It could have tied the whole game together.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:20 crecente

9:20

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Plunkett: Thirded.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:20 Speegle

9:21

[Comment From Zombie_MoogleZombie_Moogle: ]

all ideas to hope for in the sequel

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:21 Zombie_Moogle

9:21

[Comment From blue_jeepblue_jeep: ]

The protesters started protesting after your photos were published.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:21 blue_jeep

9:21

[Comment From LordxMugenLordxMugen: ]

so you wanted cutscenes showing off your pictures to the masses and them becoming more and more angry?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:21 LordxMugen

9:21

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

How cool would it be to have creative control over the content? And maybe have a tangible way of telling how much damage you were doing to the DomZ rep? Like a REVOLUTION METER!

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:21 Speegle

9:21

[Comment From Some GuySome Guy: ]

Indeed like perhaps actually taking the pics and showing them to NPCs and seeing their reactions and perhaps directly altering the storyline

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:21 Some Guy

9:22

crecente:

Ok, we have time for one more question or so. Anyone have a doozy?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:22 crecente

9:22

[Comment From SpiffynessSpiffyness: ]

@Speegle: I think the "photographer" aspect could be brilliant for an open-world game! Think: a dystopian future where you have to open-endedly ignite a revolution

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:22 Spiffyness

9:22

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

They should combine stealth, action, photography, and Quark editing suite.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:22 Speegle

9:22

[Comment From blue_jeepblue_jeep: ]

Maybe you could propagandize your own photos with photoshop!

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:22 blue_jeep

9:22

[Comment From RavncatRavncat: ]

However, altering the storyline really does, from a developer standpoint increase production time, voice recording, size, I wouldnt be surprised if they had thought of it, but didnt have the time, budget / technology to really bring it to BG and E

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:22 Ravncat

9:23

[Comment From GregoriusGregorius: ]

Do people think that Jade's reliance on male companions in anyway diminishes her status as a strong female lead, or does it help to underscore the balance between the capabilities of each gender?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:23 Gregorius

9:24

Luke Plunkett:

"Think: a dystopian future where you have to open-endedly ignite a revolution" hey, we dont know what the sequel's about yet :)

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:24 Luke Plunkett

9:24

crecente:

Interesting question because so far she almost always has a man at her side. Granted she often the one doing the rescuing, but she doesn't seem to really be a stand alone heroine

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:24 crecente

9:24

[Comment From darknemesis25darknemesis25: ]

well you play as a female. that in itself shoudl stand out more then who you play with..

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:24 darknemesis25

9:24

[Comment From NickNick: ]

I didnt' see jade as relying on make companions. She seemed to lead them more than they were dominant.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:24 Nick

9:25

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Greg: Nah. Pey'j's pop-up is passive, as opposed to Jade's killer aim-and-whack. And HH, well, HH is dumb.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:25 Speegle

9:25

[Comment From kommanderkkommanderk: ]

I dont think she relies on them really she is far more capable then they are. they more in fact hinder her as they get in trouble

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:25 kommanderk

9:25

[Comment From RavncatRavncat: ]

I actually didn`t think much about gender at all, the characters all seemed real enough, that it was like they were more people, reacting to what they knew

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:25 Ravncat

9:25

[Comment From KitsunexusKitsunexus: ]

I don't think it's a stance on gender, Gregorius, I think it's a stance on friendships.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:25 Kitsunexus

9:25

[Comment From blue_jeepblue_jeep: ]

Nah, Jade's the hero, strong and bold and that's that.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:25 blue_jeep

9:25

[Comment From Trmn8rTrmn8r: ]

Well she's always surrounded by dumb men at most

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:25 Trmn8r

9:25

[Comment From SpiffynessSpiffyness: ]

I think that it sorta propagates the typical feminist stereotype of men: Jade is smart and peaceful, the male characters are both dumb (especially HH) and are only useful when she needs stupid violent force

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:25 Spiffyness

9:25

[Comment From dawimp523dawimp523: ]

I didn't really think about male vs. female. I mean, they were just trying to survive in the big scary world!

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:25 dawimp523

9:26

[Comment From Trmn8rTrmn8r: ]

Men smart enough to use their head to break through things

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:26 Trmn8r

9:26

crecente:

It seems, as we talk through the issue of the lead being a woman, that it didn't seem to phase anyone. Would the game felt different or not worked as well if Jade were a man?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:26 crecente

9:26

[Comment From CharChar: ]

Actually, I was somewhat annoyed by how heroic jade was in comparison to the males. HH's bumbling heroism and Peyj's gruff nature made them easier to attach too then jade's constant perfection

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:26 Char

9:26

[Comment From WildRileWildRile: ]

Gregorious: I don't think the fact that she has male companions. It's more of a team thing. Compare Jade's kill count to Pey'j or Double H. I think it's more likely to be a male companion because they are used for strength. I can't think of any games where there is a large muscular woman character

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:26 WildRile

9:27

[Comment From RavncatRavncat: ]

Though as were talking about gender, what about her computer being a guy , instead of a girl voice

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:27 Ravncat

9:27

[Comment From NickNick: ]

It wouldn't have been as hear-plucking if it were another "man"

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:27 Nick

9:27

[Comment From KitsunexusKitsunexus: ]

Yeah it would be different. A man with green lipstick is freaky.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:27 Kitsunexus

9:27

[Comment From darknemesis25darknemesis25: ]

haha

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:27 darknemesis25

9:27

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Being conditioned by years of violent games, I would feel odd with such a passive male character. Some games need a woman. See Fatal Frame and Clock Tower.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:27 Speegle

9:27

[Comment From RavncatRavncat: ]

I think if Jade were a man, we wouldve needed some of the other male characters to be female, or there`d be very little balance

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:27 Ravncat

9:28

[Comment From SpiffynessSpiffyness: ]

Well, society generally sees men as dumb and violent, so a somewhat passive, intelligent character would naturally be a woman

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:28 Spiffyness

9:28

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Spiffyness: Your words make me angry! I will hit you now!

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:28 Speegle

9:28

[Comment From SpiffynessSpiffyness: ]

Also, her gender is necessary to establish the motherlike bond with the orphan animals

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:28 Spiffyness

9:28

[Comment From Zombie_MoogleZombie_Moogle: ]

there's no nurturing male archetype

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:28 Zombie_Moogle

9:29

[Comment From kommanderkkommanderk: ]

I dont think i would have bought the game if the main character was a man, it would have blended in with all the other games in my eyes, as i didnt know much about the game when i got it.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:29 kommanderk

9:29

[Comment From WildRileWildRile: ]

A man would be different game play i think. You'd feel weird having a guy unable to get through gates and doors. Even the dorkiest character I can think of Gordon Freeman, a physicist, can break through gates and such

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:29 WildRile

9:29

[Comment From Trmn8rTrmn8r: ]

True words spiffy

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:29 Trmn8r

9:30

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

It would be like Thief minus arrows, or MGS minus neck snaps.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:30 Speegle

9:30

[Comment From SpiffynessSpiffyness: ]

@Zombie_Moogle: yeah, exactly. Y'know what? As great as this game is for having a woman lead, it's still a stereotypical female lead. Let's have some brutish women in our games! Or a man with a soft spot for puppies!

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:30 Spiffyness

9:31

[Comment From Trmn8rTrmn8r: ]

Hellboy likes kitties

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:31 Trmn8r

9:31

[Comment From SpeegleSpeegle: ]

Jill Valentine is not that girly. Kinda cold and merciless.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:31 Speegle

9:33

[Comment From KitsunexusKitsunexus: ]

Something other than a stereotypical female lead? CRAZINESS! NEXT THING YOU KNOW YOU'LL BE SUGGESTING THEY GET THE RIGHT TO VOTE!

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:33 Kitsunexus

9:33

[Comment From darknemesis25darknemesis25: ]

do you think jabe being a girl can make the game any more moetional? or make a bond with any of the male characters that would otherwise look gay if it were a man lead?

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:33 darknemesis25

9:33

crecente:

Alright, it looks like it's about time to wrap things up.

Big appologies again to everyone for the late assignment and for the last minute time change.

Our next meeting, will be the last one for this game, so you'll just have to finish the game. I'll make sure to post an official assignment later in the week with the new meeting time. But everyone should get to playing.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:33 crecente

9:35

crecente:

Next month I'll run another open poll to see what our next game should be.

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:35 crecente

9:36

[Comment From KitsunexusKitsunexus: ]

crecente can u unban me from the comments please

Tuesday July 22, 2008 9:36 Kitsunexus

9:36

crecente:

Shoot me an email