Dem Debate in Philadelphia

(04/16/2008)

5:03

Hello all. I'm livebloggin AND livestraming, so forgive if there are technical difficulties. Here we go.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:03

5:06

Nothing new in the opening statements, except Clinton's line that neither she nor Obama were included in the "founding documents" of this country—said apropos of this being Pennsylvania, home of our founding documents.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:06

5:06

[Comment From Mike of RentonMike of Renton: ]

Was that "neither of us were here then" line a shot at McCain?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:06 Mike of Renton

5:08

[Comment From mattmatt: ]

I am bummed that the stream doesn't appear to be working

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:08 matt

5:08

Matt: It's working for me.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:08

5:09

Question about whether either one of them would accept the other as a running mate.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:09

5:09

[Comment From the hybridthe hybrid: ]

Pretty brilliant making that poor tv stations website the only one available for the entire country.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:09 the hybrid

5:09

[Comment From CatoCato: ]

Broken for me...just a blank black screen

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:09 Cato

5:10

Obama dodges on this, but says that it is certain the party will "come together" by the convention in Denver.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:10

5:10

[Comment From CatoCato: ]

Looks like you have to use Internet Explorer

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:10 Cato

5:10

[Comment From NatalieNatalie: ]

short version of Obama's answer: No Fucking Way.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:10 Natalie

5:10

[Comment From 4d4d: ]

I've got it running in Firefox

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:10 4d

5:11

Clinton also dodges—but says she's going to do everything she can to make sure one of them is in the Oval Office next year. And seems to say that she'll travel anywhere she's needed in order to make the case for Obama, if he wins the nomination.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:11

5:11

[Comment From Mike of RentonMike of Renton: ]

I had to use IE Tab to get it running in Firefox.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:11 Mike of Renton

5:11

[Comment From CatoCato: ]

Clinton....blah blah blah

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:11 Cato

5:11

[Comment From WaldoWaldo: ]

Does Hillary think Obama has crossed the "presidential threshhold" yet?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:11 Waldo

5:11

[Comment From mattmatt: ]

I switched to IE and it started right up! Yay!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:11 matt

5:12

And now, a question to Obama about his "bitter" remarks.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:12

5:13

Obama says, again, that he "mangled" it.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:13

5:13

[Comment From PennPenn: ]

where can I watch the debate online?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:13 Penn

5:13

Penn: Links above.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:13

5:13

[Comment From CatoCato: ]

mms://a1491.l1175848405.c11758.n.lm.akamaistream.net/D/1491/11758/v0001/reflector:48405

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:13 Cato

5:13

[Comment From 4d4d: ]

http://a.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/livemedia?section=news/politics&id=6083174

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:13 4d

5:14

[Comment From PennPenn: ]

thanks so much, I live in Philadelphia and we're writing a report on it for a college class

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:14 Penn

5:14

Sure.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:14

5:15

Obama tries to nuance his way through an explanation of what he meant, but is still talking as if he is not one of the people he was talk about—not "one of them." I don't think he put this to rest with that answer.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:15

5:16

Clinton, of course, hits this hard. Said Obama fundamentally misunderstands the role of faith and guns. "I can see why people would be taken aback and offended by the remarks."

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:16

5:16

[Comment From WaldoWaldo: ]

Is there a state in the union Hillary doesn't claim to be from in some way?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:16 Waldo

5:16

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

Lacemakers Grandaughter....

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:16 NapoleonXIV

5:17

[Comment From Danny GDanny G: ]

Of course Obama's not "one of them", to suggest anything else would be pandering, like taking a shot of Crown Royal at a bar full of rednecks!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:17 Danny G

5:17

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Yeah, if Obama was smart he would pretend he is one of those white working class voters from rural Pennsylvania. They'll eat that up.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:17 Guest

5:18

Clinton gets asked if she thinks Obama can beat McCain (especailly in light of the damage from his recent comments). She dodges, saying, "Well, I think we have to beat McCain." And adds that she will do everything she can to make that happen.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:18

5:18

[Comment From brettbrett: ]

gotta love how hillary is using republican frames to criticize obama.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:18 brett

5:18

Aha! Something new: Pressed, Clinton says Obama can win. "Yes, yes, yes, I think he can. But I think I can do a better job of it."

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:18

5:18

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

Yes he can, yes he can, yes he can!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:18 NapoleonXIV

5:18

[Comment From elenchoselenchos: ]

Doh! But my intern said rednecks drink Crown Royal!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:18 elenchos

5:18

[Comment From CatoCato: ]

Newsflah: Clinton thinks Obama can win =P

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:18 Cato

5:19

[Comment From NatalieNatalie: ]

wow. let's make this even more playground-esque.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:19 Natalie

5:19

[Comment From elenchoselenchos: ]

I like how she quotes James Joyce.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:19 elenchos

5:20

Obama returns to the "bitter" remarks, saying he's a person of faith and he listens to gun owners (and has been supported by them in his home state).

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:20

5:20

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

Faith and guns. Seems kinda extraneously thrown in. He needs to move on.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:20 NapoleonXIV

5:22

Obama brings up Clinton's experience being slammed for the "I'm not at home baking cookies" remark in 1992. Says she was slammed then for something she didn't quite mean in the same way he's being slammed now for something he didn't quite mean. And, he adds, that Clinton therefore learned the wrong lesson from her experience. Rather than rejecting that kind of politics, she's now mimicking it and using it agains a Democrat.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:22

5:22

[Comment From alsoalso: ]

Poor Clinton. He's saying he doesn't want to play in the mud with her.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:22 also

5:22

[Comment From elenchoselenchos: ]

"Clinton learned the wrong lesson from it" Oh yes.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:22 elenchos

5:23

[Comment From indianaindiana: ]

bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:23 indiana

5:23

Clinton doesn't really explain the difference between the two isntances.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:23

5:23

[Comment From alsoalso: ]

correction, indiana: bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, nice

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:23 also

5:23

[Comment From mistermixmistermix: ]

her entire point is that he said one bad thing -- is that going to get her elected?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:23 mistermix

5:25

Back to the Wright controversy... Nothing really new in this.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:25

5:25

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

We're back to Obama's Imam, Pastor Wright. This dead horse will be too dead and flogged to kill and flog again by November

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:25 NapoleonXIV

5:25

But, I guess, significant that it's not a dead issue yet.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:25

5:27

Clinton is asked about her statment that Wright "would not have been my pastor." Does she really think everyone at Trinity should have left the church because of Wright?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:27

5:27

Clinton, in a strong answer, says she was asked a personal question, and that for her, as a Senator from New York, she could not have stayed with the church given Wright's comments blaming the U.S. for 9/11.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:27

5:27

[Comment From artistdogboyartistdogboy: ]

screw the main stream press and their fucking horse race

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:27 artistdogboy

5:27

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

Senator Clinton, do you have anything bitchy you'd like to add about Obama's inflammatory pastor?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:27 NapoleonXIV

5:27

[Comment From DavidCDavidC: ]

Anyone else watching the green focus group bar?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:27 DavidC

5:27

[Comment From alsoalso: ]

she even looks tired of talking about it.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:27 also

5:28

[Comment From elenchoselenchos: ]

Oh fuck it all. This church crap hurts my brain to figure out. Don't we have a clause in the Constitution that says there is no religious test for public office?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:28 elenchos

5:29

Obama is forced, again, into saying he wasn't aware of all the pastor's statements. And that he was there for the church more than for the pastor. But he's on the defensive here again, not the position he wants to be in.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:29

5:29

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

Obama makes the little green bar flat-line.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:29 NapoleonXIV

5:30

Obama is asked whether he loves American more than Wright. Also: What is he going to do about the Wright videos if he gets the nomination?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:30

5:30

[Comment From Mike of RentonMike of Renton: ]

I'm watching the bar. It starts out low but gets higher as Obama speaks.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:30 Mike of Renton

5:30

[Comment From alsoalso: ]

are they really asking him to make a judgment about how much someone else loves america?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:30 also

5:30

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

If the commentators mention his bowling score, eveyone run out to a bar and take a drink.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:30 NapoleonXIV

5:31

Obama says if it wasn't this, it would be something else. And if Clinton wins the nomination, there will be a lot of video played related to her.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:31

5:31

[Comment From CatoCato: ]

uh oh, he's struggling

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:31 Cato

5:31

[Comment From artistdogboyartistdogboy: ]

Fuck these ABC right wing Disney mentality fuckers

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:31 artistdogboy

5:31

[Comment From DavidCDavidC: ]

What a waste of time - please move on who cares ugh!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:31 DavidC

5:32

Obama is pressed on whether he believes that he and Wright love America equally. He won't throw Wright under the bus on this—an uncomfortable moment. Stephanopolous sounds incredulous and Obama ends up defending a man who, it's just been pointed out, blamed America for 9/11.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:32

5:32

[Comment From CatoCato: ]

let's spend the entire debate talking about who's a bigger patriot.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:32 Cato

5:32

[Comment From AndrewAndrew: ]

So much for issues huh?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:32 Andrew

5:32

[Comment From Danny GDanny G: ]

It's outrageous to suggest that someone who volunteered as a medic in Vietnam doesn't love his country!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:32 Danny G

5:33

[Comment From TravisTravis: ]

This has got to be one of the most annoying debates to watch. Does anyone know if they have plans to talk about any substantive issues???

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:33 Travis

5:33

[Comment From DavidCDavidC: ]

Energy issues/Biofuels/food prices/Climate Changed related drought - and yet 90% of the debate is about nonsense

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:33 DavidC

5:33

Clinton, asked about the Bosnia mistake, says: "I may be a lot of things, but I'm not dumb." She's embarassed by her mistatements, has apologized for them, but she's proud that she went to Bosnia.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:33

5:34

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

She's not dumb. Dishonest. But not dumb.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:34 NapoleonXIV

5:34

[Comment From alsoalso: ]

ugh, this debate sucks. it's all going to be "gotcha" moments rather than serious debate about policy.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:34 also

5:34

[Comment From WaldoWaldo: ]

Hillary's mistakes we should give a pass on, but Obama's he needs to fry in

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:34 Waldo

5:34

[Comment From AndrewAndrew: ]

But Travis, if you love America is an issue for MSM. Who cares if you have no job, cann't afford food etc

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:34 Andrew

5:34

[Comment From Mike of RentonMike of Renton: ]

"I'm not dumb." No one is accusing her of being dumb, they're accusing her of being full of shit.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:34 Mike of Renton

5:35

[Comment From AndrewAndrew: ]

At least Hillary is also getting screwed on non-issues

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:35 Andrew

5:35

Clinton says that in order to not repeat her mistake she'll try to get more sleep, and maybe have a minder with her, but that these things happen to people who talk as much as the two of them do.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:35

5:35

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

If she gets dumb and dishonest when she doesn't have enough sleep, do we really want her up at 3:00 a.m.?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:35 NapoleonXIV

5:36

[Comment From PennPenn: ]

The focus group bar does not look too good for Hillary

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:36 Penn

5:36

[Comment From WaldoWaldo: ]

Strange- she's sorry about the Bosnian adventure, but not about voting for the wars

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:36 Waldo

5:36

[Comment From artistdogboyartistdogboy: ]

If her lips are moving she probably lying

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:36 artistdogboy

5:37

Obama says Clinton should be given the benefit of the doubt, and that gaffes are inevitable and shouldn't be focused on when there are so many other important issues—an implicit defense of himself getting slammed for the "bitter" remarks, and a stark conrtast with the way Clinton has failed to give him the benefit of the doubt. Gets applause for this.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:37

5:38

[Comment From blue22blue22: ]

obama's defending her on bosnia after she just ripped his throat out on wright and the bitter stuff

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:38 blue22

5:38

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

Good on Obama

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:38 NapoleonXIV

5:38

[Comment From CatoCato: ]

Obama brings up the Issues....maybe the moderators will pick up on the hint.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:38 Cato

5:38

Obama is asked about his inconsistent wearing of the flag pin. Will it be a vulnerability?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:38

5:38

[Comment From WaldoWaldo: ]

Oh lordy, th flag pin thing again. What a bunch ofloons!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:38 Waldo

5:38

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

Why do you hate America, Mr. Obama?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:38 NapoleonXIV

5:38

[Comment From mnmmnm: ]

christ

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:38 mnm

5:38

[Comment From kid icaruskid icarus: ]

oh please god no the flag please please no no no

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:38 kid icarus

5:38

[Comment From NatalieNatalie: ]

the euro just rose against the dollar by TWO CENTS yesterday, to $1.59, and they are asking about a friggin pin.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:38 Natalie

5:39

Obama answers with his life story, his own "improbable story," saying "I could not help but love this country for all its given me."

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:39

5:40

[Comment From DavidCDavidC: ]

This is the worst debate so far - the Finf! Flag pin crap - for christ sakes!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:40 DavidC

5:40

[Comment From WaldoWaldo: ]

in for penny, in for a pound- let's get into whether he's a Marxist or a Muslim

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:40 Waldo

5:40

[Comment From Danny GDanny G: ]

Does Obama love the flag? What's next? "Sen. Obama, do you love your children? What about your wife?"

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:40 Danny G

5:40

[Comment From indianaindiana: ]

I am watching this with my wife. I first thought about giving mohey to Obama in September. My wife has been looking forward to Hillary for years, disgusted with the current administration. Over the past 4 to 6 weeks she has developed a visceral dislike for Hillary as result of her Roveian moves, to the point where now she may stay home if Hillary is the nominee.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:40 indiana

5:40

[Comment From elenchoselenchos: ]

I guess you wouldn't need to give all that "help" to veterans if you'd just wear the pin. Pin is a lot easier than that other stuff.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:40 elenchos

5:41

Obama further criticizes the flag pin controversy as a "manufactured issue." Some in the audience again applaud.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:41

5:41

[Comment From artistdogboyartistdogboy: ]

This is a defining moment in the state of ameriican journalism what assholes

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:41 artistdogboy

5:41

[Comment From TravisTravis: ]

Amen Brother Obama!!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:41 Travis

5:42

And now Obama is asked about his association with a former Weather Underground bomber.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:42

5:43

"This kind of game, in which anybody I know, regardless of how flimsy the relationship is, that somehow their ideas can be attributed to me—I think the American people are smarter than that."

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:43

5:44

Clinton says it's a fair point Obama's making, but that he was on a board with this Weather Underground member who said, after 9/11, that he was sorry more hadn't been done.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:44

5:44

[Comment From Michelle in OHMichelle in OH: ]

manufacturing issues == possible replacement for other manufacturing jobs in PA?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:44 Michelle in OH

5:44

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

She's also running on the Rudy Guiliani principle: 9-11! 9-11! 9-11!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:44 NapoleonXIV

5:46

And she uses it to make the point that she's more electable than him—the Republicans will use his associations against him, while they've already thrown everything they have at her and she's still standing.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:46

5:46

[Comment From CatoCato: ]

How much baggage do you have Hillary. more than Obama?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:46 Cato

5:46

[Comment From WaldoWaldo: ]

Apparently the new deciding point is that she has old baggage and he as new

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:46 Waldo

5:46

[Comment From PennPenn: ]

Focus group members seemed to be eating up her answer though.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:46 Penn

5:46

Obama hits back by noting that by Clinton's own standard, she's less electable than he is, since Bill Clinton pardoned two Weather Underground members.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:46

5:47

Break.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:47

5:47	Who's winning? Clinton ( 26% ) Obama ( 74% ) Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:47

5:47

[Comment From Michelle in OHMichelle in OH: ]

I love the passive aggressive listing of each other's faults. Like, "oh, I'm sure you're lovely. But the REPUBLICANS (bastards!) are gonna bring up the fact that YOU ARE THE DEVIL SPAWN. Just sayin.'"

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:47 Michelle in OH

5:48

[Comment From artistdogboyartistdogboy: ]

can we vote for Bruce Springsteen

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:48 artistdogboy

5:48

[Comment From elenchoselenchos: ]

So Obama consistently wants to get to the issues and Clinton consistently thinks the trivial gaffes should be what we talk bout.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:48 elenchos

5:48

[Comment From the hybridthe hybrid: ]

This is the most fucking retarded debate I've ever seen. And we've had some pretty bad debates.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:48 the hybrid

5:48

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

I don't know how they're measuring focus group response, but Obama seems to keep a higher, more sustained, squiggly green line.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:48 NapoleonXIV

5:48

[Comment From PennPenn: ]

How fair is it to make Hillary responsible for Bill's policies? They're different (but related) individuals. Unless we can establish that Hillary contributed to pardoning them, I don't see why this should affect her,

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:48 Penn

5:49

Looks like you think Obama's winning (no surprise given that this is Slog.) Poll's over.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:49

5:50

[Comment From EdEd: ]

I don't care who is winning - all I care about is that Hillary Clinton has lost all of my respect - permanently. She has become a cheap shot artist. She's gotten very good at, Barck is such a good man....but, he's an evil America-hating, terrorist loving, elitist prig.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:50 Ed

5:50

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

If she's going to cite her 35 years of experience, she's gotta own Bill's policies.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:50 NapoleonXIV

5:50

[Comment From KK: ]

Penn: Because she bases her presidential experience on having been a part of his presidency.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:50 K

5:50

[Comment From WaldoWaldo: ]

Because Hillary draws much of her claims of experience from his time in office, and Bill mixes his record and hers ten times a day.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:50 Waldo

5:50

[Comment From EdEd: ]

And Obama didn't bomb anything - doesn't stop them from bringing up his "associates"

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:50 Ed

5:50

[Comment From CatoCato: ]

Hillary can now denounce her husband.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:50 Cato

5:50

[Comment From the hybridthe hybrid: ]

Hillary wants to claim the 90s as part of her "30 years of experience". So that includes NAFTA and the pardons.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:50 the hybrid

5:50

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

I'm an Obama man, and I voted for her in this poll. She's winning on cheap points, thus far (IMHO).

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:50 Guest

5:50

[Comment From superyeadonsuperyeadon: ]

the poll sample is a bit biased.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:50 superyeadon

5:51

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

You *could* give ECB Slog Superdelegate status. Might change the outcome.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:51 NapoleonXIV

5:51

[Comment From DavidCDavidC: ]

New Rules: You have to vet everyone on a board before you choose to sit on it - I wonder if any of the Wal-Mart dudes Hillary served with have any skeletons

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:51 DavidC

5:51

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Penn: If she's using Bill's 8 years as part of her resume, she owns it. Can't have it both ways.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:51 Guest

5:51

[Comment From EdEd: ]

Someone needs to beat Gibson and Sephanidiot over the head - this is ridiculous and purely process stuff. How about some actual discussion of what matters?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:51 Ed

5:52

And we're back.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:52

5:53

Question from an average voter...

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:53

5:53

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

She can't ask that! She doesn't even sound American!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:53 NapoleonXIV

5:53

The question is: What are their actual plans for getting troops out of Iraq?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:53

5:54

Clinton says she will brings troops home even if the commanders in Iraq don't recommend it and say it will destabilize Iraq and the region.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:54

5:54

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

The question was: Do they even have a plan. *Really* have a plan.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:54 NapoleonXIV

5:55

[Comment From elenchoselenchos: ]

Of course they *really* have a plan. Just don't *really* *really* *really* have a plan.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:55 elenchos

5:55

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

Boy, the green line likes a withdrawal......

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:55 NapoleonXIV

5:55

So is Clinton saying she knows better than the military commanders? Better than Patreus, who just said the gains in Iraq are fragile and reversible?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:55

5:56

No, she says, but she firmly believes that the war in Iraq "is no way for us to maintain a strong position in the world."

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:56

5:56

[Comment From KK: ]

The word "destabilize" implies that Iraq is stable now. Which it isn't and hasn't been since we invaded.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:56 K

5:56

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

Well, it sounds like she gets it. Finally.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:56 NapoleonXIV

5:58

Obama is asked whether he will give the same promise to bring troops home no matter what. He seems to say yes, "Because the commander in chief sets the mission."

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:58

5:59

He says, further, that his direction to the military commanders will be that the mission has changed and it is now to get troops out of Iraq in an expeditious manner.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:59

5:59

[Comment From TooTrueTooTrue: ]

Refreshing to see a leader that understands leadership!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:59 TooTrue

5:59

Obama is asked whether he would treat an Iranian attack on Israel as an attack on the United States.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 5:59

6:00

He says the first step should be keeping nuclear weapons out of the hands of the Iranians.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:00

6:01

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

The interesting turn is how would he treat an Israeli attack on Iran......

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:01 NapoleonXIV

6:01

And he says an attack on Israel would be "unacceptable."

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:01

6:02

Clinton goes further, saying an attack on Israel would assure "massive retaliation" from the United States.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:02

6:02

[Comment From kid icaruskid icarus: ]

I hate the Iran fear mongering so much.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:02 kid icarus

6:04

Clinton gives a very strong answer on Middle East policy, deterrance, and the benefit of offering our protection not just to Israel, but to allies that we're trying to prevent from wanting nuclear weapons.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:04

6:04

[Comment From DavidCDavidC: ]

Let's kill everybody and all our problems will go away! (Mass starvation...)

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:04 DavidC

6:05

Clip is played of McCain mocking Obama's "hope" line and warning that Democrats love to raise taxes.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:05

6:05

[Comment From PennPenn: ]

I'm on the HotAir forum and it's interesting that their views differ from Slog's

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:05 Penn

6:05

[Comment From NatalieNatalie: ]

McCain as a crazy old coot! that's how you get the Democrats to smile!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:05 Natalie

6:05

[Comment From PJPJ: ]

ANY attack on Israel means annihilation for Iran. 200 nukes are a serious deterrent.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:05 PJ

6:06

Clinton commits to no middle class tax increases of any kind.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:06

6:06

Obama commits to cutting middle class taxes.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:06

6:07

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

We're never gonna balance the budget this way. Unless we cut taxes, and *eat* the rich.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:07 NapoleonXIV

6:08

[Comment From kid icaruskid icarus: ]

and kill the poor

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:08 kid icarus

6:09

[Comment From indianaindiana: ]

i pay a lot of taxes and economically should vote for McCain. I will be happy to pay my Obama tax, but would be very resentful of a

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:09 indiana

6:09

[Comment From indianaindiana: ]

of a Hillary tax.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:09 indiana

6:09

Obama is pressed on the capital gains tax—moderator points out that historically, when it's been raised, the government actually takes in less money from it.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:09

6:10

[Comment From PJPJ: ]

The tax code is junk. Too complicated and just wrong. Scrap it and start over, maybe with a VAT.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:10 PJ

6:10

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

They like the "soak the hedge-fund manager" talk...

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:10 NapoleonXIV

6:11

[Comment From EdEd: ]

I doubt Hillary will go that far on the hedge fund issue - that's the only money she can rely on to run negative ads.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:11 Ed

6:11

Obama disagrees with the premise of the question and defends his tax cut plan.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:11

6:13

Clinton takes the opportunity to go through her economic plan, with a strong focus on the housing crisis—freezing foreclosures, freezing interest rates, etc.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:13

6:13

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

Hillary foresaw the housing crisis a year ago? Why didn't she say something?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:13 NapoleonXIV

6:14

[Comment From SteveSteve: ]

I'm so glad that Obama stood his ground on the "low tax, high revenue" myth, but I'm really sad that people who don't know that are going to see it as awkward and bad.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:14 Steve

6:15

But back on the capital gains tax—is Charlie Gibson looking to unload some major stock?—Clinton says she won't raise it above 20 percent, if she does.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:15

6:15

[Comment From FnarfFnarf: ]

I wish there was a way that any candidate that started talking about tax cuts for ANYONE would instantly explode. We can't afford any tax cuts period. We HAVE to balance the budget NOW.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:15 Fnarf

6:15

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

Damn, this guy must have a lot socked away in stocks. He won't get off the Capital Gains Tax.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:15 NapoleonXIV

6:16

[Comment From tsmtsm: ]

At least when he's talking about the capital gains tax, he's not focusing on really cheap "gotcha" moments. More talk about bitterness and flag pins, I demand! More! More!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:16 tsm

6:18

On to Social Security... Both are going to save it—and suggest the other won't.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:18

6:18

[Comment From EdEd: ]

Damn social security - there is no way to win on that other than to pander. One of them is good at that, the other isn't

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:18 Ed

6:19

[Comment From SteveSteve: ]

This is pretty substantive; somehow I think we wouldn't have gotten this (wonderfully) nitty-gritty without Obama as a candidate.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:19 Steve

6:19

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

China's going to repossess our old people!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:19 NapoleonXIV

6:19

[Comment From WaldoWaldo: ]

Hillary will fix SSi without cutting benefits for current recipients. Bend over, Young Americans, prepare to get screwed

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:19 Waldo

6:19

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

Hillary seems to have faith-based solutions for Social Security.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:19 NapoleonXIV

6:19

And another break...

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:19

6:21

And another poll...

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:21

6:21	Will this debate change the state of the race? Yes ( 10% ) No ( 90% ) Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:21

6:21

[Comment From the hybridthe hybrid: ]

It's too bad Georgie and Charlie spent the first half of the debate on meaningless bullshit.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:21 the hybrid

6:22

[Comment From NapoleonXIVNapoleonXIV: ]

Nah--it's still going to be the black guy, against the creepy old guy with the squeaky voice.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:22 NapoleonXIV

6:22

[Comment From WaldoWaldo: ]

This debate is so awful Hotline says the campaigns have only sent out three opposition bulletins during it.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:22 Waldo

6:22

[Comment From PJPJ: ]

The state of the race will stay "Obama says something, Hillary dissects it." It's getting old. No one likes a tattler. God, my mom would kill me if she heard me ripping Hillary like this.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:22 PJ

6:23

Ok, poll's over.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:23

6:23

[Comment From WTFWTF: ]

anyone else find it interesting that so many of these commercials are about ways to make you poop better?

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:23 WTF

6:23

[Comment From Miss StereoMiss Stereo: ]

Yawn.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:23 Miss Stereo

6:23

[Comment From WaldoWaldo: ]

ABC News is getting killed in the viewer comments:

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:23 Waldo

6:24

[Comment From EdEd: ]

What all of this will tell us is if Americans really want a change in their politics or not. The moderators and Sen. Clinton are very good with the old rules - we'll see if the public is ready to move past "gotcha" politics, etc.....

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:24 Ed

6:24

[Comment From EdEd: ]

Old people are watching....of course it's about poop.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:24 Ed

6:24

[Comment From WaldoWaldo: ]

One ABC viewer says: "My pet snake would be a better moderator than the two dopes ABC has supposedly running this debate! After an hour, we get to a legitimate question??!!! HORRIBLE JOB ABC!!! Just plain HORRIBLE!!!!!"

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:24 Waldo

6:24

And we're back.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:24

6:25

Charlie Gibson brings up the anniversary of the Virginia Tech shootings as a way to talk about guns.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:25

6:25

[Comment From Miss StereoMiss Stereo: ]

Sooooooo tired of the gun issue.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:25 Miss Stereo

6:26

Clinton is asked why she doesn't mention some of her tougher gun-control stances anymore. She talks about bringing back the COPS program instead.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:26

6:26

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

answer the question, hillary

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:26 Guest

6:27

[Comment From Reality CheckReality Check: ]

They better tread lightly on this topic. It will cost them the presidency if they misstep here...

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:27 Reality Check

6:27

[Comment From AprileAprile: ]

Not answering the question. At all.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:27 Aprile

6:27

[Comment From DavidCDavidC: ]

Gun control laws, abortion, lets talka bout something else that won't change

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:27 DavidC

6:29

Obama is asked about DC's law prohibiting ownership of handguns—the one that's now before the Supreme Court. He dodges, but says he believes that people have a right to bear arms. And, that the government has a right to restrain that right.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:29

6:31

[Comment From PJPJ: ]

WHAT?!?!? You can't have a right and have it restrained at the same time!

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:31 PJ

6:32

Clinton dodges the question also. But takes a shot at Cheney—"who is a fourth, special branch of government all unto himself"—for filing a brief in the case.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:32

6:33

[Comment From kid icaruskid icarus: ]

The green line is as bored with the gun talk as I am.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:33 kid icarus

6:35

Sorry guys, my connection here at The Stranger is starting to run super slow... Probably won't be able to keep up.

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:35

6:38

M o l a s s e s

Wednesday April 16, 2008 6:38

6:38