Live chat on Proposal 4: Home Health Care issue
Friday November 2, 2012
11:55
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
Hi everybody! Meegan Holland here, statewide news editor for MLive. I'll be moderating today's live chat, which will get started in just a few minutes.
Friday November 2, 2012 11:55 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
11:58
[Comment From Dave Murray MLiveDave Murray MLive: ] 
Hello everyone! Welcome to our live chat today.
Friday November 2, 2012 11:58 Dave Murray MLive
11:58
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
Welcome Dave Murray! Dave is the MLive reporter who's been covering Proposal 4.
Friday November 2, 2012 11:58 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:01
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
Today's chat will include Dohn Hoyle, co-chairman of Citizens for Affordable Quality Home Care, the organization backing the proposal. Hoyle is executive director of The Arc Michigan, a Lansing-based advocacy group for people with intellectual and developmental disabilities.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:01 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:02
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
And it will also include Derk Wilcox, senior attorney at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, which has been critical of Proposal 4.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:02 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:02
[Comment From Dohn HoyleDohn Hoyle: ] 
Hello, everybody, this is Dohn Hoyle of the Arc Michigan and co-chair of Citizens for Affordable Quality Home Care.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:02 Dohn Hoyle
12:02
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
Welcome Dohn. We're just getting Derk onto the chat, and then we're ready to roll!
Friday November 2, 2012 12:02 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:02
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Hello everyone. Thank you MLive for doing this.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:02 Derk Wilcox
12:02
[Comment From livingstongallivingstongal: ] 
Thanks for doing this. I've been following the stories all week long. I like what I hear so far but interested in the debate. My question is: Can you tell me about the registry and why advocates say it's needed?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:02 livingstongal
12:03
Dave Murray: 
Hello folks. Are panelists are typing in their responses.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:03 Dave Murray
12:04
[Comment From Clark GoodrichClark Goodrich: ] 
Hi!
Friday November 2, 2012 12:04 Clark Goodrich
12:04
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
Clark, thanks for joining the chat. We're having a few technical glitches so hang with us.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:04 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:05
Dave Murray: 
Here is the ballot language:
Proposal 4: A PROPOSAL TO AMEND THE STATE CONSTITUTION TO ESTABLISH THE MICHIGAN QUALITY HOME CARE COUNCIL AND PROVIDE COLLECTIVE BARGAINING FOR IN-HOME CARE WORKERS

This proposal would:

• Allow in-home care workers to bargain collectively with the Michigan Quality
Home Care Council (MQHCC). Continue the current exclusive representative of
in-home care workers until modified in accordance with labor laws.

• Require MQHCC to provide training for in-home care workers, create a registry
of workers who pass background checks, and provide financial services to
patients to manage the cost of in-home care.

• Preserve patients’ rights to hire in-home care workers who are not referred from the MQHCC registry who are bargaining unit members.

• Authorize the MQHCC to set minimum compensation standards and terms and
conditions of employment.

Should this proposal be approved? (Yes or No)
Friday November 2, 2012 12:05 Dave Murray
12:05
Dohn Hoyle: 
Proposal 4 establishes a registry that links home care recipients with pre-screened home care providers in their area. Home care providers on the registry will be required to undergo strict criminal background checks and will have access to training so they can better care for seniors and people with disabilities. The registry also address compatiability issues between home care recipients and providers.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:05 Dohn Hoyle
12:06
[Comment From JacksonJackson: ] 
Do background checks apply to people that take care of family members, or only people on the registry?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:06 Jackson
12:06
Dohn Hoyle: 
A home care recipient would be sent three-five prescreened people who would be compatible, and the recipient can choose from those people, ask for more referrals, or select their own.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:06 Dohn Hoyle
12:06
Dohn Hoyle: 
Background checks are only for people on the registry.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:06 Dohn Hoyle
12:06
[Comment From JacksonJackson: ] 
Will this save taxpayer money
Friday November 2, 2012 12:06 Jackson
12:07
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Livingstongal, the registry is to help a minority of the home help recipients who are not cared for by friends or relatives. However, the registry existed before and can continue to exist without Proposal 4. It does not require a constitutional amendment.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:07 Derk Wilcox
12:07
Dohn Hoyle: 
Yes. Proposal 4 can save taxpayer dollars, as home care is much less expensive than nursing homes, according to non-partisan studies by the AARP and the Anderson Economic Group.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:07 Dohn Hoyle
12:07
Dave Murray: 
Jackson -- Finances are not a factor. The Medicaid program will continue no matter what happens with the proposal.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:07 Dave Murray
12:08
[Comment From JKellyJKelly: ] 
Hi Derek and Dohn, I think its important for workers to have criminal background checks. Would the Council oversee all these checks? What about people who want to hire a family member that doesn't want to have a background check?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:08 JKelly
12:08
Dave Murray: 
Dohn, how will this keep people out of nursing homes?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:08 Dave Murray
12:08
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
Lots of questions about the background checks. Thanks for these.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:08 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:09
Dohn Hoyle: 
The ability of people to find someone to find services helps ensure they don't have to go to more expensive settings. The registry provides the ability to find a qualified home care provider.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:09 Dohn Hoyle
12:09
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Jackson, there are no new provisions in proposal 4 that would save taxpayers money. The program for home help has been in place since 1981.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:09 Derk Wilcox
12:09
Dohn Hoyle: 
Dave: It allows people to get the services they need in their own home by finding a compatible provider who can come into their home who has the skills neccesary.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:09 Dohn Hoyle
12:10
[Comment From livingstongallivingstongal: ] 
But I heard that the registry was taken away by Snyder isn't that true?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:10 livingstongal
12:11
Dave Murray: 
Livingstongal -- I believe there is a registry available on a state website right now. Dohn would be able to tell us where that would be.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:11 Dave Murray
12:11
[Comment From Wild BillWild Bill: ] 
Mr. Hoyle has said several times in the media that Proposal 4 is "not about unionization" - if that is the case, why is the SEIU spending up to $9 million trying to put it in the Constitution?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:11 Wild Bill
12:11
Dohn Hoyle: 
The increase in the number of people who need services, along with the shrinking of the workforce, will make finding qualified people more difficult as times go on. The old method of putting up a flyer at a grocery store is not safe and does not provide results.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:11 Dohn Hoyle
12:12
Dohn Hoyle: 
SEIU, along with Michigan's leading senior and disability rights groups, supports Proposal 4. We believe strongly that a stable workforce of home care providers results in higher quality care for recipients.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:12 Dohn Hoyle
12:13
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Most of the care recipients are family members or close friends and they don't need the background checks.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:13 Derk Wilcox
12:13
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Proposal 4 is all about unionization. The unionization under the SEIU is the only aspect of Proposal 4 that requires a constitutional amendment.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:13 Derk Wilcox
12:13
[Comment From Lee WallaceLee Wallace: ] 
I have MS and won't be able to care for my 79 year old parents soon, so the state's home care Medicaid is going to be a life-saver, and the registry will be a big help. But I think home care needs to be a real, licensed occupation and I need someone who understands MS. I don't want to go to a nursing home! What's the plan for training paid caregivers and established some standards?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:13 Lee Wallace
12:13
Dohn Hoyle: 
Another IMPORTANT point is that senior and disability rights advocates have been pushing for this registry long before the workers joined a union.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:13 Dohn Hoyle
12:13
[Comment From Clark GoodrichClark Goodrich: ] 
As a person born 40 years ago with a significant physical disability who requires personal assistant services to get up every day, I like the idea of having a place I can go to find pre-screened caregivers. I could share a few horror stories of the caregivers I found by putting ads in the paper (but I will spare you that)!
Friday November 2, 2012 12:13 Clark Goodrich
12:14
[Comment From ChuckChuck: ] 
Mlive, the Detroit News, the Detroit Free Press, Lansing State Journal, Midland Daily News, Mt. Pleasant Morning Sun, Kalamazoo Gazette, Flint Journal, Saginaw Times, Livingston Daily and every other newspaper in the state - liberal to conservative - that has taken a position has said NO to Proposal 4. Why are they all wrong?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:14 Chuck
12:15
Dohn Hoyle: 
Lee: The current registry, when funded, did try to respond to the needs that both home help recipients and providers indicated they needed. One of our strongest supporters of Proposal 4 is the MS Society of Michigan, another strong advocate for home care training.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:15 Dohn Hoyle
12:15
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Mlive says about the registry and training that: “those safety nets already exist, through professional associations and community service organizations like the United Way. It would be easier to argue Proposal 4 creates a false sense of security, by suggesting but not mandating quality measures.”
Friday November 2, 2012 12:15 Derk Wilcox
12:15
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Chuck, you are correct. No newspaper I am aware of has endorsed Prop 4.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:15 Derk Wilcox
12:15
[Comment From Ken SocolowzynkKen Socolowzynk: ] 
The debate on this has been interesting ... the union involvement vs. criminal background checks and training. Aren't these two things sort of the common ground between unions and management anyways? Are we being told that the union would stand in the way of those things? That doesn't seem to have been the track record if A) the union already exists; and B) the criminal background checks and training, as has been said, "already exists." Can you clear up this?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:15 Ken Socolowzynk
12:16
[Comment From Clark GoodrichClark Goodrich: ] 
It is certainly not ALL about unionization, and I rather resent that limited perspective!
Friday November 2, 2012 12:16 Clark Goodrich
12:16
Dohn Hoyle: 
Chuck: The Michigan Disbility Rights Coalition, the Arc of Michigan, the Area Agencies on Aging Association of Michigan, the MS Society of Michigan, the Michigan Nurses Association, law enforcement from across the state, and many more endorse Proposal 4. They are highly qualified to speak on senior and disability rights issues.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:16 Dohn Hoyle
12:17
[Comment From EdSharpeEdSharpe: ] 
I'm interested in who supports and opposes each proposal. You can tell a lot that way. I saw all the supporters on the Proposal 4 website but the no website, the Mackinac Center doesn't list any of their supporters. Who is backing the no side?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:17 EdSharpe
12:17
Dave Murray: 
Dohn: Would the disability groups have been able to get the petitions signed and the measure on the ballot without the assistance of the SEIU?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:17 Dave Murray
12:17
[Comment From macnuggettsmacnuggetts: ] 
If the workers are already union then they don't need a constitutuional amendment right Derek
Friday November 2, 2012 12:17 macnuggetts
12:18
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Ken, the SEIU already represents the home care workers and has to date skimmed over $32 million that was intended to go for the care of the home help recipients.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:18 Derk Wilcox
12:18
[Comment From miles braffordmiles brafford: ] 
my mother receives home care through the Medicaid program. We, her family, aren't able to care for her ourselves and we want this program to be available for her to receive good care. It is my understanding the legislature cut funding for many of the important parts of this program. That's why we have to vote yes on proposition 4
Friday November 2, 2012 12:18 miles brafford
12:18
[Comment From Downriver JimDownriver Jim: ] 
I've been reading stories of families who are looking after their own children and don't like paying money to the union. If Proposal 4 passes, will they still be forced to pay?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:18 Downriver Jim
12:18
Dohn Hoyle: 
Ken: The Legislature defunded the registry a year ago, and along with it the training and background checks. The registry is barely limping along with donations from disability groups and the workers, but it's nowhere near able to meet the growing demand.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:18 Dohn Hoyle
12:19
[Comment From msmommsmom: ] 
But passing proposal 4 means we'd have a state registry to help consumers find workers. This is an enhancement to the program, in my opinion.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:19 msmom
12:19
[Comment From Clark GoodrichClark Goodrich: ] 
Derk, I am personally aware of at least three individuals who, before the MQCCC was in place, chose to bypass the extreme difficulty of finding workers on their own and went into nursing homes.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:19 Clark Goodrich
12:19
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Ed, the Mackinac Center neither supports nor opposes Proposal 4. However, we do think that everyone needs to know the facts surrounding Proposal 4, and the implications if it passes. We view some of the public policies in proposal 4 as being bad for the state and bad for the in-home caregivers and the people receiving the care.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:19 Derk Wilcox
12:19
Dohn Hoyle: 
Downriver Jim: No one is forced to join a union. They would still pay an agency fee as required by the law. However, they've also received a 55% pay increase while paying 2.5% in dues.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:19 Dohn Hoyle
12:20
Dohn Hoyle: 
Clarification: Up to a 55% increase.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:20 Dohn Hoyle
12:21
[Comment From DonDon: ] 
Why on earth should our constitution be amended to address home care workers? Our constitution exists to define how government works, not protection union dues.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:21 Don
12:21
Dave Murray: 
Dohn, can you tell us what percentage of the dues someone would still have to pay as the agency fees? I've heard 80 percent. Is that correct?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:21 Dave Murray
12:21
[Comment From Midland_MomMidland_Mom: ] 
Will the no side answer my question? Why be opposed to a registry, training, and tax payer savings?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:21 Midland_Mom
12:21
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Downriver Jim, even if you left the union you would still have to pay agency fees to the SEIU, which are almost as much as the dues.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:21 Derk Wilcox
12:21
Dohn Hoyle: 
After gaining collective bargaining rights, home care providers have received three raises -- their first in over a decade. I know many parents who appreciate the representation and advocacy of the organization.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:21 Dohn Hoyle
12:22
Dohn Hoyle: 
Dave: Regarding agency fees, I don't know the answer to that.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:22 Dohn Hoyle
12:22
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Dave, The difference between agency fees and union dues is usually the amount the union spends on lobbying. However, since lobbying is the only way, under Prop4, that the union can "negotiate" higher wages, this will likely not be refundable.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:22 Derk Wilcox
12:23
[Comment From JacksonJackson: ] 
How are people forced into nursing homes? Doesn't everyone have the right to stay in their homes?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:23 Jackson
12:23
[Comment From JacksonJackson: ] 
What kind of training a will be available, and are they mandatory?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:23 Jackson
12:24
[Comment From msmommsmom: ] 
Who can participate in the trainings?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:24 msmom
12:24
Dave Murray: 
Dohn and Derk: The SEIU would be negotiating with the newly formed Council. Does the council have the authority to only recommend wage increases?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:24 Dave Murray
12:24
[Comment From macnuggettsmacnuggetts: ] 
The Mackinac Center just ran an article that some caregivers pay no dues when they ask. Did I read that right Derks?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:24 macnuggetts
12:24
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Jackson, the U.S. Supreme Court, in 1999, held that public policy favoring institutionalization amounted to discrimination, and that care should be given in least restrictive setting. So it is already a constitutional requirement that Medicaid favor in-home care over institutionalization.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:24 Derk Wilcox
12:24
Dohn Hoyle: 
Jackson: If you don't have assistance in your own home, the only alternative is institutional care. Proposal 4 gives seniors and people with disabilities the right and choice to stay in their own homes, because they will have a method of finding the asisstance they need.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:24 Dohn Hoyle
12:25
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Macnuggetts, I believe that some have opted out of the union. I can't speak to if or why the union isn't asking for agency fees.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:25 Derk Wilcox
12:26
[Comment From WilliamWilliam: ] 
I have a question for Dohn. I've read all of the stories about the campaign finance reports. I'm confused where all of your money comes from to support this Proposal? Who gave money to the group that wrote all of those big checks to your campaign committee? I won't lie. It seems very shady to me.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:26 William
12:26
Dohn Hoyle: 
Jackson: The training covers everything from first aid, mechanics of lifting, precautions, dimentia/alzheimer's care. Training is also given to recipients to help them manage, hire and fire, etc. Training is not mandatory.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:26 Dohn Hoyle
12:26
[Comment From Clark GoodrichClark Goodrich: ] 
The one thing that I know some people don't care for about Prop 4 is that if passed, all DHS caregivers will have to pay union dues even if they don't use the registry and choose to opt out of the union, and I can understand their frustration with that, but the increase in caregiver pay already won by the union, along with their plans to strive for more hours for caregivers, seems to greatly outweigh the limited cost and benefit both the workers and those for whom they work.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:26 Clark Goodrich
12:27
Dohn Hoyle: 
William: Proposal 4 is supported by Michigan's leading senior and disability rights groups, as well as homecare workers. We've seen very little about who is funding the Mackinac Center's campaign against Proposal 4.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:27 Dohn Hoyle
12:27
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Dave, it is correct that under Prop 4 wages are not negotiated. The proposed constitutional wording is very specific that compensation standards are set by the legislature – not by bargaining with the union. See proposed Section 31(2)(d).
Friday November 2, 2012 12:27 Derk Wilcox
12:27
[Comment From WilliamWilliam: ] 
Another question for Dohn. If I take care of my sick son, why do I need a union? They aren't going to negotiate with my son!
Friday November 2, 2012 12:27 William
12:29
Dohn Hoyle: 
William: The state sets rates. Before representation, home care providers -- including family providers -- were paid less than minimum wage. Senior and disability rights advocates, along with the union, have advocated strongly on behalf of all home care workers.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:29 Dohn Hoyle
12:29
Dave Murray: 
Dohn, Can you tell us a little more about the background checks. Are law enforcement offices backing this request?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:29 Dave Murray
12:29
Dohn Hoyle: 
D
Friday November 2, 2012 12:29 Dohn Hoyle
12:30
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Clark, the increases in pay have all corresponded with increases in the minimum wage. Since these increases were the result of the budgetary legislative process, I’m sure many concerns went into what the legislature finally decided – but since these increases have corresponded to the increases in the minimum wage, I doubt that the SEIU had that much to do with it.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:30 Derk Wilcox
12:30
[Comment From Clark GoodrichClark Goodrich: ] 
Correction, Derk: It is a constitutional requirement that Medicaid not outright deny in-home care, but Title XIX of the Social Security Act, which mandates states' Medicaid Long-term Care expenditures, is still biased toward institutionalization. In-home care has annual caps while nursing home care does not; this is how people are "forced" (through a lack of available options) into institutions.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:30 Clark Goodrich
12:31
Dohn Hoyle: 
Dave: numerous sheriffs, prosecutors, police chiefs and others strongly support Proposal 4 because it will require home care providers on the registry to undergo strict criminal background checks. A full list of law enforcement supporters can be found at www.keephomecaresafe.org
Friday November 2, 2012 12:31 Dohn Hoyle
12:31
[Comment From Lee WallaceLee Wallace: ] 
I like the idea that there is a way for consumers and caregivers and family to all band together to educate the legislators about making quality care the issue. It seems to me to be a basic right to get help at home but I know the funding is biased towards the business end- nursing home owners making money. Our caregiver makes about $8 a hour
Friday November 2, 2012 12:31 Lee Wallace
12:31
[Comment From ss3251ss3251: ] 
I should not have to endure a criminal background check to care for my sick parent!
Friday November 2, 2012 12:31 ss3251
12:31
Dohn Hoyle: 
ss3251: You would not have to undergo a criminal background check or be listed on a registry unless you wished.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:31 Dohn Hoyle
12:31
Dave Murray: 
Dohn: Thank you. Will the council be providing the background checks, or would that be local law enforcement?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:31 Dave Murray
12:32
Dohn Hoyle: 
Dave: The council would work with law enforcement to conduct the criminal background checks.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:32 Dohn Hoyle
12:32
[Comment From EuniceEunice: ] 
Mlive shared my story in its coverage yesterday (much to my surprise as a first time poster!). Our family went through this very frustrating and emotionally draining issue several years ago. When you find yourself suddenly thrown into finding care for a loved one, and then realizing how little resources are out there to help you, you'll truly understand why, to me, Proposal 4 is so important. Families should not have to go into bankruptcy or be stretched and frayed so thin just because there is not a one-stop place to go to find caregivers who you can trust. Patchwork home care for our seniors is not an answer for the future. We need Proposal 4. Thank you.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:32 Eunice
12:32
Dave Murray: 
Dohn: Could you clarify that? Are the background checks optional?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:32 Dave Murray
12:33
Dohn Hoyle: 
Dave: to be on the registry, you must pass a background check. Family caregivers do not have to be on the registry. Being listed on the registry is optional, but if you wish to be on the registry, you must pass the background check.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:33 Dohn Hoyle
12:34
[Comment From Clark GoodrichClark Goodrich: ] 
Well, my aides were paid squat for 10 years before the SEIU stepped in.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:34 Clark Goodrich
12:34
[Comment From DonDon: ] 
Why is a constitutional amendment required to create a registry for home care workers? That's overkill...
Friday November 2, 2012 12:34 Don
12:35
[Comment From Shane JonesShane Jones: ] 
Having to undergo a background check before receiving governmental funding makes sense. Would health care workers be excluded or lose employment because of background checks or are they only to provide information.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:35 Shane Jones
12:35
Dohn Hoyle: 
Don: the Constiution is all about rights. Seniors and people with disabilities should have the right to age in place and stay in their own homes. If you can't find the services you need, it's an empty right.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:35 Dohn Hoyle
12:36
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Clark, no the Supreme Court said that public policy favoring institutionalization amounted to discrimination. You can argue about different provisions of the social security law and different caps, but the Supreme Court is the bottom line.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:36 Derk Wilcox
12:36
Dohn Hoyle: 
Shane: If a provider can't pass a background, he or she would not be placed on the registry nor referred to anyone.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:36 Dohn Hoyle
12:36
[Comment From ss3251ss3251: ] 
But, I can not get paid without being on the registry. Hence I cannot get paid for the care given to my parent without a background check. Stop being deceptive
Friday November 2, 2012 12:36 ss3251
12:36
[Comment From Lee WallaceLee Wallace: ] 
Eunice is right. There's 10,000 baby boomers that reach age 65 every day, and we are going to need skilled, professional help that doesn't turn over constantly because of low wages and no benefits. This should be an important job.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:36 Lee Wallace
12:37
Dohn Hoyle: 
ss3521: That's just not true. You CAN be paid without being on the registry.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:37 Dohn Hoyle
12:37
[Comment From ss3251ss3251: ] 
NO Dohn. Not through the medicare program. Stop being deceptive.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:37 ss3251
12:38
Dohn Hoyle: 
Again, NO background check is required for Home Help providers. Only those on the registry would be subject to criminal background checks. Being listed on the registry is optional.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:38 Dohn Hoyle
12:38
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Lee, Prop 4 would not provide benefits. Under Prop 4 caregivers are only public employees for the purpose of joining the union. They do not get any benefits, and the wages are still determined by the legislature.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:38 Derk Wilcox
12:38
[Comment From AngryAuntieAngryAuntie: ] 
I am a person who is involved in the Home Help program. I've cared for three individuals for the past 8 years, all them disabled but active citizens in our state, living independently in their own apartment or home. At first, I was unsure what the union would bring to this program. I even voted no on the union election the first time around. But I have to say from personal experience, the union *has* made a difference. As has already been stated, we were earning $5.15 an hour. Wage increases came due to the union and others advocating in the Legislature. It took *both* Democrats and Republicans to do that. The union helped set up first-ever training -- I went through two of the classes on CPR and how to lift safely. Getting that training took *both* Republicans and Democrats. So my question is this ... if all this was OK back a couple years ago, and everyone was working together on a very important issue like home care, how come all of a sudden this is some highly-partisan, flame-throwing issue?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:38 AngryAuntie
12:39
Dohn Hoyle: 
Auntie: Because the Mackinac Center and other extremists are treating this issue like a political football and throwing seniors and people with disabilities under the bus, just to exact some anti-union vendetta.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:39 Dohn Hoyle
12:40
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Angry Auntie, the Service Employees International Union (SEIU) has skimmed more than $32 million from private in-home caregivers by claiming that they are government employees. Most of these caregivers are simply taking care of their family members or friends. All the other provisions of Prop 4 are just a cover story as these programs, such as the registry, are already in place and do not need a constitutional amendment to continue.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:40 Derk Wilcox
12:40
[Comment From JoyceJoyce: ] 
I want to know more about Mackinaw Center too, it really does seem to be the only opposition out there. Prop 4 has all kinds of public supporters that have publicly identified themselves.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:40 Joyce
12:40
[Comment From JacksonJackson: ] 
Lunch break is over, thanks for the debate! I was undecided at first, but I'll be voting yes on 4. Seems like common sense to me to make sure people are safe and can be cared for in their homes.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:40 Jackson
12:41
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
Thanks, Jackson, for participating!
Friday November 2, 2012 12:41 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:41
Dohn Hoyle: 
Derk: What interest does the Mackinac Center have in senior institutions? Isn't one of your board members a developer of senior centers? Would he not potentially profit from Prop 4 failing?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:41 Dohn Hoyle
12:41
[Comment From Ken SocolowzynkKen Socolowzynk: ] 
I'm interested in hearing more about, if Proposal 4 doesn't pass, how this issue doesn't go away. How will we ensure people are trained, screened and know what they're doing? Leave it up to private agencies? I know a friend who went through that with his mom and finally threw up his hands in disgust because the quality of people were so terrible. I think this whole Proposal 4 issue raises the need for Michigan to crack down and regulate this industry -- even if this Proposal does not win on Tuesday, no?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:41 Ken Socolowzynk
12:42
[Comment From Clark GoodrichClark Goodrich: ] 
The Supreme Court (the Olmstead decision, 1999) was telling a State of Georgia organization, like our Department of Community Health, that they cannot refuse to provide services in the least restrictive environment possible, but this ruling did nothing to change federal law governing how States choose to dole out Medicaid services. In-home care in Michigan and all but a handful of states is capped; nursing home care is not.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:42 Clark Goodrich
12:43
Dohn Hoyle: 
Ken: There is currently no other methodology except through Proposal 4 for home care providers to receive training or undergo background checks.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:43 Dohn Hoyle
12:44
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Joyce, there is almost no group out there that I am aware of spending anything like the $9 million backing prop 4 - most of which comes from the SEIU. This is controversial because the SEIU wants to keep the $6 million a year coming.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:44 Derk Wilcox
12:44
[Comment From ss3251ss3251: ] 
The regulation is just a front. The real issue is the MONEY the SEIU wants to take from individuals who are caring for loved ones in their own home. This Prop 4 is shameless and deceptive.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:44 ss3251
12:44
[Comment From AngryAuntieAngryAuntie: ] 
Actually, Derk, due to your organization's misrepresentations and saber-rattling the current Legislature defunded all these things you try to claim to people will continue? I take offense to your effort to mislead.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:44 AngryAuntie
12:44
Dohn Hoyle: 
Derk: How much have nursing homes and private duty home care companies given to the Mackinac Center?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:44 Dohn Hoyle
12:45
Dave Murray: 
Dohn and Derk: So much of this debate has been based around the SEIU, so we could address it and move on. Can you tell us how much of the $9 million backers are spending in this comes from the union? Could you have put this on the ballot without union help?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:45 Dave Murray
12:46
Dohn Hoyle: 
Dave: We have filed all campaign finance reports that have been required by law. Derk still hasn't told us or MLive readers how much nursing homes and private duty agencies have "donated" to the Mackinac Center to fight Proposal 4.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:46 Dohn Hoyle
12:46
[Comment From miles braffordmiles brafford: ] 
Meegan, who at MLive made the decision to oppose proposition 4? Specifically why? What interest does a news corp have in opposing seniors? Readership to gain?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:46 miles brafford
12:46
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
Miles, MLive assembled an editorial board to endorse on all the ballot proposals. We felt it was important as a news organization to take stands on these important issues, just as our member newspapers have done for decades. I certainly don't think the reason MLive didn't endorse on Prop 4 was because it opposes seniors.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:46 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:47
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
By the way, reporters who write about the ballot issues have no role at all in endorsements and often don't know the company's position until it's shared with the public. There's a wall between the editorial board and who's actually writing about the issue.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:47 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:48
[Comment From CarletonCarleton: ] 
This issue is soooo simple: If the Chamber of Commerce forced tens of thousands of businesses to pay them "dues," no one would stand for it. Why does the SEIU get to do so to caregivers? Voting NO
Friday November 2, 2012 12:48 Carleton
12:48
Dohn Hoyle: 
Proposal 4 is supported by the Arc of Michigan, the Michigan Disability Rights Coalition, the MS Society of Michigan, the Area Agencies on Aging Association of Michigan, Michigan Paralyzed Veterans of America, any more more who know more about home care than newspapers or the Mackinac Center.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:48 Dohn Hoyle
12:48
[Comment From JoyceJoyce: ] 
Derek, it seems like you only want to talk about SEIU. I've read on here that the workers have benefited from the union, and that this initiative is about more than just the union. It will make the state invest in home care infrastructure so consumers can find safe help. It seems unbalanced that the opposition is basically fighting against seniors and peopel with disabilities best interests. Thanks for your response though.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:48 Joyce
12:48
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Dave, Dohn won't say. All the money is being funneled in through Dohn's group and he refuses to disclose how much the SEIU is giving. His "disclosures" only cover a front group.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:48 Derk Wilcox
12:48
[Comment From RodneyRodney: ] 
I object to the misuse of our constitution for personal peeves. Why can't the legislative process be employed rather than going to this extreme?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:48 Rodney
12:49
[Comment From CarletonCarleton: ] 
So the union is paying for this whole campaign...but they are never mentioned in any of the commercials whatsoever. Why?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:49 Carleton
12:49
[Comment From Lee WallaceLee Wallace: ] 
I read in my MS newsletter that disability groups like the Arc joined together with caregivers in SEIU to win a lawsuit to stop Medicaid cuts. There were no CEOs or chamber of commerce types trying to help advocate for home care, just consumers, caregivers, and their families. People on medicaid are low-income, so we need all the grassroots support we can get. If caregivers making $8 and hour chose to campaign for improved home care choices, isn't that their democratic right?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:49 Lee Wallace
12:49
Dohn Hoyle: 
Carelton: to receive benefits from the Chamber, you have to pay dues.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:49 Dohn Hoyle
12:49
[Comment From miles braffordmiles brafford: ] 
Meegan, of course. thank you for the response. i appreciate your coverage of the issue and don't mean to implicate you in the company's decision. just wondering why the editorial board opposes proposition 4?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:49 miles brafford
12:49
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
Thanks Miles. I'm glad you asked - a lot of people have been confused about the endorsement process.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:49 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:49
Dave Murray: 
Dohn: We can get that answered and off the table. How much of Home Care First's funding is from the SEIU?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:49 Dave Murray
12:49
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Dohn, no nursing home group has had any influence on what we have written or said to educate the public about prop 4. What a silly misdirection.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:49 Derk Wilcox
12:50
Dohn Hoyle: 
Derk: One of your board members has a vested financial interest in defeating Prop 4.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:50 Dohn Hoyle
12:51
[Comment From BladeRunnerBladeRunner: ] 
Can both sides answer the funding question?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:51 BladeRunner
12:51
Dohn Hoyle: 
Dave: SEIU has been a strong supporter of Home Care First, along with the Arc Michigan, the Michigan Disability Rights Coalition and many, many more senior and disability rights groups.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:51 Dohn Hoyle
12:51
[Comment From GuestGuest: ] 
Dohn, the SEIU has a HUGE financial intereset in passing Prop 4.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:51 Guest
12:51
[Comment From CarletonCarleton: ] 
Dohn - The dues to the Chamber are VOLUNTARY. You can't just make people give you money.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:51 Carleton
12:52
[Comment From BladeRunnerBladeRunner: ] 
Good Dohn answered the funding question. Derk needs to answer please!
Friday November 2, 2012 12:52 BladeRunner
12:52
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Dohn, I have no idea what or who you are talking about when you start talking about a board member with a vested interest.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:52 Derk Wilcox
12:52
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
Ok, everybody, we're about to wrap up. Dohn and Derk will both make some closing statements, but if any of you have a final thought on Prop 4, please share.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:52 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:53
[Comment From CharlestonCharleston: ] 
Would it be OK for the Mackinac Center to corral people into supporting them? Then why is it OK for the SEIU? VOTE NO!
Friday November 2, 2012 12:53 Charleston
12:54
[Comment From miles braffordmiles brafford: ] 
i hope that people can rally to vote to pass prop 4. low-income seniors deserve to be cared for, and it doesn't cost taxpayers a thing! let's pass it!
Friday November 2, 2012 12:54 miles brafford
12:54
[Comment From ss3251ss3251: ] 
Prop 4 is nothing but a deceptive money grab by the SEIU! I do not need to be in a union or on any registry to be able to care for my sick parent!
Friday November 2, 2012 12:54 ss3251
12:54
[Comment From Dohn HoyleDohn Hoyle: ] 
We need the protection of Proposal 4 to end the uncertainties around home care in Michigan. Seniors and people with disabilities are in a very tenuous position since the Legislature, under pressure from the Mackinac Center, defunded the registry.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:54 Dohn Hoyle
12:54
[Comment From ChewChewChewChew: ] 
VOTE YES
Friday November 2, 2012 12:54 ChewChew
12:54
[Comment From macnuggetsmacnuggets: ] 
Voting Yes. Good debate.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:54 macnuggets
12:54
[Comment From Good-to-GoGood-to-Go: ] 
A registry, training, savings for taxpayers. I support it.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:54 Good-to-Go
12:55
[Comment From miles braffordmiles brafford: ] 
SEIU cares about the seniors and disabled people that the program helps. i've seen this reality through the good care my mother has received for 3 years.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:55 miles brafford
12:55
[Comment From Ken SocolowzynkKen Socolowzynk: ] 
This chat has only reinforced for me that, out of all the proposals, this one is a yes vote. No one in the opposition can give me a clear, coherent argument of what happens if it doesn't pass. I'm voting yes.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:55 Ken Socolowzynk
12:55
[Comment From JoyceJoyce: ] 
I'll vote yes on this proposal, Dohn thanks for advocating for consumers and workers.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:55 Joyce
12:55
[Comment From Dohn HoyleDohn Hoyle: ] 
Derk and his supporters in the nursing home industry are spreading a lot of lies about Proposal 4. Here's what it actually does: Proposal 4 establishes a registry to link home care recipients with pre-screened home care providers in their area. Home care providers on the registry will be required to undergo criminal background checks and will have access to training so they can better care for seniors and persons with disabilities. Proposal 4 will allow seniors and persons with disabilities the choice to direct their own care while remaining healthy and independent in their own homes, instead of forcing them into expensive nursing homes or other institutions. Proposal 4 can save taxpayer dollars, as home care is much less expensive to taxpayers than nursing homes, according to non-partisan studies by the AARP and the Anderson Economic Group. Proposal 4 is supported by Michigan’s leading senior and disability rights advocates, including the Area Agencies on Aging Association of Michigan, the Michigan Disability Rights Coalition, Michigan Paralyzed Veterans of America and many more.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:55 Dohn Hoyle
12:56
[Comment From Derk WilcoxDerk Wilcox: ] 
Proposal 4 is about the forced unionization of people who are providing care to friends and family. The SEIU is the union behind all of this and they are backing it because they stand to gain $6 million a year in dues and agency fees. The registry and background checks have all existed in past and can continue in the future without a constituional amendment.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:56 Derk Wilcox
12:56
[Comment From EmilyEmily: ] 
These propsals seem to come from selfish groups with narrow interests. Why do we need to alter the consitution for their narrow purposes? Isn't it more appropriate to go to the state legislature?
Friday November 2, 2012 12:56 Emily
12:56
[Comment From Dohn HoyleDohn Hoyle: ] 
Those are the facts. More information can be found at www.keephomecaresafe.org.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:56 Dohn Hoyle
12:57
Meegan Holland|MLive.com: 
Thank you so much, Dohn Hoyle and Derk Wilcox, for participating in this live chat. And thanks to all of our participants.

Here's a story including links to ALL our statewide coverage - it'll help you vote on Nov. 6: http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2012/11/your_ultimate_michigan_2012_el_1.html
Friday November 2, 2012 12:57 Meegan Holland|MLive.com
12:57
Dave Murray: 
We're about done. I want to thank our guests for taking time out of their day to answer questions about Proposal 4. We can continue the discussion in the comments, and I'll have another post with highlights later today.
Friday November 2, 2012 12:57 Dave Murray
12:58
 

 
 
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