Viewer - Live chat on Proposal 5: 2/3 tax plan

Live chat on Proposal 5: 2/3 tax plan

Friday October 5, 2012

11:49

Meegan Holland - MLive:

Hi everyone! We'll get started right at noon with our guests.

Friday October 5, 2012 11:49 Meegan Holland - MLive

11:50

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Awesome!

Friday October 5, 2012 11:50 Lewis

11:51

Meegan Holland | MLive:

Welcome Lewis. We'll get started in a minute. Thanks for joining us. This is a moderated chat, so we need to approve comments before they go up.

Friday October 5, 2012 11:51 Meegan Holland | MLive

11:51

Tim Martin:

Hello all...this is Tim Martin with MLive.com

Friday October 5, 2012 11:51 Tim Martin

11:51

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Roger that.

Friday October 5, 2012 11:51 Lewis

11:51

Lana Theis, MAP:

Hi Tim!

Friday October 5, 2012 11:51 Lana Theis, MAP

11:52

Meegan Holland | MLive:

Tim Martin is the reporter who is MLive's expert on Proposal 5.

Friday October 5, 2012 11:52 Meegan Holland | MLive

11:52

Tim Martin:

Hi Lana. Thanks for getting in

Friday October 5, 2012 11:52 Tim Martin

11:52

Lana Theis, MAP:

Glad to be here.

Friday October 5, 2012 11:52 Lana Theis, MAP

11:53

Roger Martin:

Hello.

Friday October 5, 2012 11:53 Roger Martin

11:55

[Comment From Jen Eyer | MLive.comJen Eyer | MLive.com: ]

Hi everyone. I'm going to be helping moderate the chat. We'll send comments through as we receive them — as long as they are civil — but we'll pace the questions in order to maintain a good flow to the discussion.

Friday October 5, 2012 11:55 Jen Eyer | MLive.com

11:56

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

I love these online things, I can be in the middle of no where (Hillsdale College), and still get access to all this fun information.

Friday October 5, 2012 11:56 Lewis

11:58

Jen Eyer | MLive.com:

Glad you appreciate it, Lewis!

Friday October 5, 2012 11:58 Jen Eyer | MLive.com

11:59

Jen Eyer | MLive.com:

We are approaching these live chats as our editorial board meetings on the six statewide ballot proposals, and in a few weeks we will issue statewide institutional editorials for MLive Media Group on them.

Friday October 5, 2012 11:59 Jen Eyer | MLive.com

11:59

Meegan Holland | MLive:

Welcome everyone to today's live chat on Proposal 5. This is the proposal on the November ballot that would require a two-thirds - or so-called supermajority - vote in the state House and in the Senate before any tax increases could be executed. Failing that, a simple majority vote of the people could approve tax increases.

Friday October 5, 2012 11:59 Meegan Holland | MLive

12:00

[Comment From YonasYonas: ]

Hi, from the University of Michigan.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:00 Yonas

12:00

[Comment From GregGreg: ]

I have a friend that went to Hillsdale College named Lewis. Great beacon of liberty.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:00 Greg

12:00

Meegan Holland | MLive:

Today we welcome two guest panelists on each side the issue:
Lana Theis is the president of Michigan Alliance for Prosperity, which is the organization behind Proposal 5, the 2/3 Amendment.
and
Roger Martin a spokesman for Defend Michigan Democracy, which opposes Proposal 5

Friday October 5, 2012 12:00 Meegan Holland | MLive

12:01

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Yes, the name Lewis is a great beacon, HC is ok too ;)

Friday October 5, 2012 12:01 Lewis

12:01

Lana Theis, MAP:

I’m Lana Theis, the president of the Michigan Alliance for Prosperity and the 2/3 initiative.
The language of Prop 5 would: “Require a 2/3 majority vote of the state House and the state Senate, or a statewide vote of the people at a November election, in order for the State of Michigan to impose new or additional taxes on taxpayers or expand the base of taxation or increasing the rate of taxation.
This section shall in no way be construed to limit or modify tax limitations otherwise created in this Constitution.”
A yes on prop 5 protects Michigan taxpayers by making taxes harder to raise than they are to lower. www.MiProsperity.com

Friday October 5, 2012 12:01 Lana Theis, MAP

12:01

Roger Martin:

Welcome all. I’m Roger Martin. I’m spokesperson for VOTE NO on 5, Defend Michigan Democracy. I’m a former political and investigative reporter at The Detroit News and now am a small business owner (a Lansing PR firm). Before we start our back and forth, I think people in the chat should know who we (NO on 5) are. All of the opponents of Proposal 5 are Michigan citizens, leaders and organizations. They include Gov. Snyder, the state’s top Republican legislators, Democrats and even anti-tax Tea Party leaders. We are the state’s leading business organizations aligned with working men and women in every Michigan community and every Michigan county. We are Michigan police officers and firefighters, teachers and school administrators, religious leaders and farmers, retailers, road builders, human service organizations, community colleges, universities, and more. Many of our members agree on nothing else politically, but all agree Proposal 5 is just too extreme and creates a form of minority rule in Lansing that will limit the say Michigan citizens have in our state government. Unlike our opponents, we certainly are not getting all of our support from a lone Detroit billionaire or a Washington, DC lobbyist with millions of dollars from outside of Michigan.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:01 Roger Martin

12:02

[Comment From YonasYonas: ]

Who introduced this proposal? What groups support this proposal? Which ones do not support it?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:02 Yonas

12:03

Lana Theis, MAP:

The Michigan Alliance for Prosperity is the group that introduced that. I am the president of the group.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:03 Lana Theis, MAP

12:03

Roger Martin:

Unless you have failed to disclose all of your funding, the only people providing real money to your campaign are Detroit billionaire Matty Moroun, who funded your entire signature collection campaign and would forever have his tax cuts protected by the constitution if Proposal 5 passes, and Grover Norquist, the Washington lobbyist who was drawn into the Abramoff lobbying scandal who now says he’s paying for your media ads and robo calls with the millions he raises from other states. So far your campaign finance report looks like Matty Moroun’s checkbook ledger.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:03 Roger Martin

12:03

[Comment From ArtArt: ]

How much would a state wide referendum cost the tax payers and why is this a better use of our money than that which a majority of elected representatives deem necessary?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:03 Art

12:04

[Comment From ArtArt: ]

Is it true that Matty Maroune is the main financial backer of your efforts to get Prop 5 on the ballot and passed?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:04 Art

12:04

Lana Theis, MAP:

Supporters include National Federation of Independent business, Americans for prosperity, Americans for Tax Reform, Sheriff Mike Bouchard, and Atty General Bill Schuette

Friday October 5, 2012 12:04 Lana Theis, MAP

12:04

Roger Martin:

To see the full list of opponents of Proposal 5, I urge voters to go to www.VoteNOonProp5.com. Compare this list to the people putting the money behind Proposal 5 … Matty Moroun, who wants to control the Michigan Constitution for his own financial gain, and Washington, DC lobbyist Grover Norquist.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:04 Roger Martin

12:04

Lana Theis, MAP:

Moroun is one of our funders, and beyond that has nothing to do with the campaign. If I could have personally funded it, I would have. This was our idea and it is good public policy. .

Friday October 5, 2012 12:04 Lana Theis, MAP

12:04

[Comment From YonasYonas: ]

Thank you for answering, Lana and Roger.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:04 Yonas

12:05

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

The opponents of Proposal 5 include: Gov. Rick Snyder Senate Majority Leader Randy Richardville AARP Michigan AFL-CIO American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees American Federation of Teachers Area Agencies on Aging Business Leaders for Michigan Cadillac Area Manufacturers Association Corporation for a Skilled Workforce Disability Advocates of Kent County Gene Clem of the Southwest Michigan Patriots (West Michigan Tea Party) Grand Rapids Area Chamber of Commerce International Council of Shopping Centers Jackson City Council League of Women Voters of Michigan MARO Michigan Association of Counties Michigan Association of Health Plans Michigan Association of Intermediate School Administrators Michigan Association of School Administrators Michigan Association of School Boards Michigan Catholic Conference Michigan Chamber of Commerce Michigan Chapter, National Association of Social Workers Michigan Community College Association Michigan Education Association Michigan Farm Bureau Michigan Head Start Association Michigan Health & Hospital Association Michigan Infrastructure & Transportation Association Michigan League for Human Services Michigan Manufacturers Association Michigan Municipal League Michigan Nonprofit Association Michigan School Business Officials Michigan Sheriffs’ Association Michigan Townships Association Middle Cities Education Association Presidents Council, State Universities of Michigan Saline City Council Traverse City Chamber of Commerce

Friday October 5, 2012 12:05 Guest

12:05

Meegan Holland | MLive:

Roger, why do you say Matty Moroun wants to control the constitution for his own financial gain?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:05 Meegan Holland | MLive

12:05

Roger Martin:

He wants to control tax policy and the Legislature. If Proposal 5 passes, the tax cuts and loopholes in state law that benefit his corporations become virtually untouchable. And if he only has to control the votes of 13 senators … well, that’s easy for a billionaire to do. Moroun gave you $2.3 million to buy enough signatures of Michigan voters to put Proposal 5 on the Nov. 6 ballot. He donated all but $1,000 of the funds spent on your campaign, according to state campaign finance documents. Moroun family campaign donations in Lansing are already huge and bipartisan. If this passes, he only needs to control the votes of a small minority of just 13 state senators (out of 148 state lawmakers) on future tax votes. Maroun wins, the rest of Michigan loses. Are you really claiming that he’s doing this to protect Michigan taxpayers? That’s too preposterous for any thinking person to believe. He’s doing this for Matty Moroun.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:05 Roger Martin

12:05

Lana Theis, MAP:

We put this on the November ballot so that it wouldn't cost the taxpayers additional funds. It is a taxpayer protection such that it will be saving the taxpayers from unnecessary tax increases.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:05 Lana Theis, MAP

12:05

Meegan Holland | MLive:

Guest, do you mind changing your name in the chat tool? That would be great, in case we get multiple "guests."

Friday October 5, 2012 12:05 Meegan Holland | MLive

12:06

[Comment From KevinKevin: ]

We've seen the incredible difficulties a 2/3rds requirement has caused California in budgeting, causing draconian cuts to key programs and a paralyzed government. Why would this be different in Michigan?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:06 Kevin

12:06

Lana Theis, MAP:

You will note that the people opposing us are groups who want easy access to taxpayer pocketbooks.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:06 Lana Theis, MAP

12:07

Roger Martin:

Speaking of states with these super-minority restrictions, only a handful of states have super-minority requirements, and they tend to be poorer, or have struggling economies and ongoing state budget crises. California was the first to have this in their constitution. California is, without debate, the poster child of dysfunctional state government, failing in 16 of 20 years to balance its state budget by the legal deadline, in large part because of partisan gridlock. Mississippi is the poorest state in the nation. Nevada has the nation’s highest unemployment rate. Of the 10 states with some form of super-minority requirements, seven have unemployment rates above the national average; seven have per capita incomes below the national average. We don’t want Michigan to be Mississippi, California or any of the other states burdened by this extreme form of super-minority rule.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:07 Roger Martin

12:07

Lana Theis, MAP:

California required a 2/3 majority to pass a budget, it is a very different beast. Their issue is not a revenue problem. They spend more than they take in always.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:07 Lana Theis, MAP

12:07

[Comment From YonasYonas: ]

Why should increasing taxes be delegated directly to the people? The US is a representative democracy and not a direct democracy. We elect legislators to do this, right?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:07 Yonas

12:08

Roger Martin:

One other point to the deception of Proposal 5: you say you are giving the people more power … that if the Legislature can’t agree, you say they can ask voters to decide at the ballot box. Maybe you don’t understand or haven’t read our constitution, but we already have that power in Michigan. Our constitution and laws already give the Legislature and the people the power to put tax questions on the ballot. How about the five or six property tax reform questions of the 1980s and 1990s? What about Proposal E in 1996, which created a tax on the three Detroit casinos … I could go on. To claim you are giving “the people” some new power is simply misleading and deceitful.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:08 Roger Martin

12:08

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

How big is the current budget of the state of Michigan?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:08 Lewis

12:08

[Comment From Mary - Lake OrionMary - Lake Orion: ]

I believe that Proposal 5 would be the huge opening salvo for the enemies of the grassroots initiative Headlee Tax Limitation Amendment to have it rescinded. Which would be a great detriment to those who wish to preserve the vote of the people in local tax increase initiatives.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:08 Mary - Lake Orion

12:08

[Comment From Kevin Downey MIHospitalsKevin Downey MIHospitals: ]

Michigan hospitals have more than 200,000 employees who are deeply concerned about how this will affect health care for children, the elderly, etc. in every county of the state.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:08 Kevin Downey MIHospitals

12:09

Tim Martin:

Lewis, including all sources it is more than $45 billion. That is a ballpark answer and includes all sources of revenue.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:09 Tim Martin

12:09

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Is it true that Lana Theis is a citizen participant while Roger Martin is a professionally public relations paid individual.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:09 Guest

12:09

Lana Theis, MAP:

The people are the ones who pay the taxes. If the legislators can't reach a 2/3 agreement to raise the taxes, then the people should have the opportunity to let their opinions be known.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:09 Lana Theis, MAP

12:10

Lana Theis, MAP:

Yes, I am a citizen activist. A mom and a Township Treasurer.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:10 Lana Theis, MAP

12:10

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

How much was spent to get signatures to put proposal on the ballot and who paid for this process?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:10 Guest

12:10

Roger Martin:

I am a small business owner and a Michigan citizen first. All opponents of Prop 5 are like me, from Michigan. All the financial backers are either Washington, DC lobbyists, a Detroit billionaire, or members of a radical fringe group even denounced by the Tea Party.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:10 Roger Martin

12:10

Roger Martin:

$2.3 million, all but $1,000 came from Matty Moroun.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:10 Roger Martin

12:11

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

$45 billion is a lot of money, why do they need more?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:11 Lewis

12:11

Lana Theis, MAP:

We have donors, one major one - and this is still good public policy. When you can't win in the merits of the issue, the opponents will attack attack a straw man.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:11 Lana Theis, MAP

12:12

[Comment From Mary - Lake OrionMary - Lake Orion: ]

Lana - I'll say it again - I believe that Proposal 5 would be the huge opening salvo for the enemies of the grassroots initiative Headlee Tax Limitation Amendment to have it rescinded. Which would be a great detriment to those who wish to preserve the vote of the people in local tax increase initiatives.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:12 Mary - Lake Orion

12:13

Roger Martin:

Michigan Taxpayers United Foundation, the oldest taxpayer defense group in the state, opposes Proposal 5 because they believe it will harm the Headlee Amendment.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:13 Roger Martin

12:13

Lana Theis, MAP:

This proposal compliments Headlee. It does not effect local property taxes at all.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:13 Lana Theis, MAP

12:13

[Comment From Amy HagerstromAmy Hagerstrom: ]

Which Tea Party?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:13 Amy Hagerstrom

12:13

Roger Martin:

The leader of the SW Michigan Tea Party on Off the Record last Friday night came out against Proposal 5, saying it adds minority rule to the constitution.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:13 Roger Martin

12:13

[Comment From KristinaKristina: ]

What happens if there is a budget shortfall if 2/3 passes?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:13 Kristina

12:14

Lana Theis, MAP:

The Southwest Michigan Tea Party does not oppose 2/3rds. Roger Martin is lying when he says that this Tea Party opposes 2/3rds.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:14 Lana Theis, MAP

12:14

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

When was the last time anyone paid attention to the Headlee Amendment? Talk about fringe.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:14 Lewis

12:15

Roger Martin:

Apparently Lana did not watch Off the Record. He said it and it was reported in multiple media. You might want to call him and ask. And don't dare call me a liar.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:15 Roger Martin

12:15

Lana Theis, MAP:

Roger Martin said in MIRS this week that the SW MI Tea Party opposed this initiative. It is true the leader Gene Clemm has some reservations but the group he is a part of does not oppose it.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:15 Lana Theis, MAP

12:15

Lana Theis, MAP:

Let us talk about the policy. The opposition wants to talk about everything but the policy.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:15 Lana Theis, MAP

12:15

Lana Theis, MAP:

Roger you were quoted in MIRS this week saying that SW MI tea party opposed did you not?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:15 Lana Theis, MAP

12:16

[Comment From ArtArt: ]

If a tax increase does not reach the 2/3 threshold, how soon would it go on the ballot for the voters of the state and how much would that cost us to hold the referendum?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:16 Art

12:16

[Comment From AndreaAndrea: ]

Here is the link to the Off the Record video: http://video.wkar.org/video/2284950013/

Friday October 5, 2012 12:16 Andrea

12:16

Lana Theis, MAP:

I would go on a November Ballot. The process would be a simple majority of legislators to put it on the ballot.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:16 Lana Theis, MAP

12:17

Roger Martin:

Under the current constitution, tax votes generally appear

Friday October 5, 2012 12:17 Roger Martin

12:17

Lana Theis, MAP:

The Michigan Constitution already requires a super majority in 15 instances.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:17 Lana Theis, MAP

12:17

Roger Martin:

We are opposed to Proposal 5 for three main reasons, which we can discuss in detail: First, it creates super-minority rule in Lansing, giving unprecedented new powers to just 13 state senators. Second, the campaign to pass this super-minority amendment is funded almost entirely by one Detroit billionaire and now, as of yesterday, a scandal-ridden Wasington, DC lobbyist and his out-of-state super PAC. Third and finally, it would drive local taxes and fees higher, would lead to even more gridlock in Lansing, and would almost guarantee more cuts to local police and fire protection , to roads across Michigan, to our public schools, to our colleges and universities, to health care for more than 1.6 million children and seniors across Michigan, and more.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:17 Roger Martin

12:18

[Comment From JudyJudy: ]

This proposal as written would not allow the legislature to expand the base of a tax (i.e., sales tax on internet) without a 2/3 majority and no major tax reform that I can recall (Proposal A, Business Tax Reform, etc) has received a 2/3 majority vote in the Legislature.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:18 Judy

12:18

[Comment From Mary - Lake OrionMary - Lake Orion: ]

Lewis - So, I guess it is your suggestion that the Headlee Tax Limitation Amendment should be done away with because our representatives fail to adhere to their oath and mandate to follow it?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:18 Mary - Lake Orion

12:18

[Comment From Amy HagerstromAmy Hagerstrom: ]

Lana - have any independent experts weighed in on the impact 2/3 could have on Headlee?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:18 Amy Hagerstrom

12:19

Lana Theis, MAP:

In fact, the Michigan Constitution already requires a super majority for certain property tax increases.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:19 Lana Theis, MAP

12:19

[Comment From TeriTeri: ]

I have a question about policy, to Lana's point. Isn't this measure simply going to create serious gridlock and grind government to a halt when a minority viewpoint takes control. could both sides please discuss that

Friday October 5, 2012 12:19 Teri

12:19

Roger Martin:

No tax reform proposal (cut, new tax, closing a loophole or ending a tax break) has ever passed the state Legislature with a supermajority vote. It just does not happen. So, this is not about making it harder to raise taxes, as you deceptively claim. It’s about making state government impossible. It’s about making it impossible to ever include a tax in any future budget solutions, and it’s about making it impossible to ever close a tax break or loophole that benefits special interests including your funders. We can’t find one instance in Michigan history, at least not over the past four decades or so, that a tax reform proposal (an increase, a new tax, closing a tax loophole or break that was handing taxpayer dollars to special interests) passed with a supermajority vote. You can’t find one because it does not happen. So again, you want to make state government impossible.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:19 Roger Martin

12:19

Lana Theis, MAP:

Dr. Gary Wolfram, Economist of Hillsdale College, has weighed in and stated that Prop 5 will not effect Headlee.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:19 Lana Theis, MAP

12:20

[Comment From JudyJudy: ]

So the state would have to wait until November to respond if an emergency situation occurred?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:20 Judy

12:20

Roger Martin:

Regarding gridlock, the California legislature failed 16 out of 20 years up to 2009 to pass a balanced budget by the legal deadline, largely because of the gridlock it creates there.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:20 Roger Martin

12:20

Lana Theis, MAP:

This proposal requires consensus.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:20 Lana Theis, MAP

12:21

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Isn't there spending waste in the budget, I mean, we pay millions for Hollywood to make movies?! Also, what legislature wouldn't raise taxes if money was really needed for educatoin?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:21 Lewis

12:21

Roger Martin:

Simple democracy requires consensus, just like Michigan has had the past 175 years, since we became a state.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:21 Roger Martin

12:21

[Comment From Peter RuarkPeter Ruark: ]

Roger says "$2.3 million, all but $1,000 came from Matty Moroun." Lana says "We have donors, one major one." The Michigan voters can do the math on that one. The "one major donor" is trying to ramrod this through. Reject this undemocratic amendment and let the legislature do its job.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:21 Peter Ruark

12:21

Lana Theis, MAP:

17 states have a super majority requirement. This proposal will require that the legislature focus on economic growth policies not tax increases.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:21 Lana Theis, MAP

12:22

Jen Eyer | MLive.com:

Just a reminder to everyone, we are getting to the questions as quickly as we can.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:22 Jen Eyer | MLive.com

12:22

[Comment From ArtArt: ]

What would be considered a "tax increase" under Prop 5? Is it the closing of loop holes and other tax reform or is it only for new taxes?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:22 Art

12:22

[Comment From Mary - Lake OrionMary - Lake Orion: ]

Lana - I keep asking this question, but it never seems to show on the postings. Who was the individual/person who wrote the language in Proposal 5?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:22 Mary - Lake Orion

12:22

Roger Martin:

I suspect it was written by a lawyer paid by Matty Moroun.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:22 Roger Martin

12:22

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

the "Superminority" is merely a boogeyman that the opposition trotts to try and scare voters, with the silly comparison and a distortion ("of 13 senators vs 135 legislators." There are 38 senators - so 19 could block it now.... - I don't see the opposition clamoring to abolish the senate

Friday October 5, 2012 12:22 Guest

12:22

Lana Theis, MAP:

This is very democratic. Steve Safranek, Constitutional Attorney, who is the author of over 50 constitutional provisions across the country wrote it.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:22 Lana Theis, MAP

12:22

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Emergency, doesnt that mean all the legislatures would support it? When was the last time there was an emergency that required taxes to be increased to solve?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:22 Lewis

12:23

[Comment From DanDan: ]

Wasn't our government founded on majority rule? Why change that now, and expect voters to comprehend complex tax initiatives?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:23 Dan

12:23

[Comment From Dave M - MI Catholic ConfDave M - MI Catholic Conf: ]

Proposal 5 presents a threat to the common good of the state, and gives too much power to too few people. Does anyone remember the gridlock that occurred in the Legislature in 2007 just for a simple majority? 2/3 is over the top, and not representative of the people.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:23 Dave M - MI Catholic Conf

12:23

Lana Theis, MAP:

They can move funds at any point in time for an emergency; this requires that they priorityize their funding before they go to the taxpayer's wallet.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:23 Lana Theis, MAP

12:23

[Comment From DebDeb: ]

If there was a true emergency then obviously the legislators would realize that.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:23 Deb

12:23

Roger Martin:

For people on this chat, immediately below is the link to the state campaign finance report for their super-minority campaign. You will note in the Direct Contributions section multiple listings for a company named Liberty Bell Agency, at a PO Box in Macomb County. Trace this PO box and you find Liberty Bell Agency is owned by Moroun. Liberty Bell gave nearly all of the money to the yes side of this campaign so far. All of it from one billionaire. Does anyone really believe he’s doing this “for the taxpayers?” When was the last time you got checks for $2.3 million from a PO box?
http://miboecfr.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/cfr/contrib_anls_res.cgi?doc_seq_no%3D359210%26doc_stmnt_year%3D2012%26com_id%3D515887%26doc_date_proc%3D07/25/2012%26sched%3D1A%26doc_type_code%3DP1%26caller%3Dcf_online

Friday October 5, 2012 12:23 Roger Martin

12:23

Lana Theis, MAP:

For personal income Michigan is 36. In 1965 we were 9th.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:23 Lana Theis, MAP

12:23

[Comment From KevinKevin: ]

Simple question: Why is 2/3rds better than majority rule in this or any other case? Should we have a 2/3rds vote on anything relating to abortion policy or any other important issues?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:23 Kevin

12:24

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

2/3 only on taxes right, not all issues?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:24 Lewis

12:24

Lana Theis, MAP:

Taxes should be harder to raise than to lower. We need taxpayer protections.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:24 Lana Theis, MAP

12:24

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

We have a super majority requirement for a host of things now

Friday October 5, 2012 12:24 Michael Bouchard

12:24

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Can you imagine the backlash, 99% of Michiganders support raising taxes for education, but the legislature couldn't get 2/3 support? Seems unlikely.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:24 Lewis

12:24

Lana Theis, MAP:

Alexander Hamilton and James Madison saw the need for super majority requirements.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:24 Lana Theis, MAP

12:24

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Response to Dan - the government also recognized that certain subjects required more than a simple majority to pass - because they were importand subject matters - read your constitution.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:24 Guest

12:25

[Comment From Peter RuarkPeter Ruark: ]

Lana, let's talk about those 17 states. What are they? Are any of them states that Michigan wants to become more like? Tell us the states so readers can look into their economies, unemployment rates, educational levels, etc.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:25 Peter Ruark

12:25

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

2/3 to give a bill immediate effect

Friday October 5, 2012 12:25 Michael Bouchard

12:25

[Comment From DebDeb: ]

Roger, it seems that we have given too much power to raise taxes to a simple majority of elected officials. If it makes sense then a super majority would indeed agree.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:25 Deb

12:25

Jen Eyer | MLive.com:

Yonas and others: Questions are being paced in order to keep the flow going. Please be patient. Thanks!

Friday October 5, 2012 12:25 Jen Eyer | MLive.com

12:25

Roger Martin:

There are not 17 states that require supermajority votes for all taxes. There are 10. Here are some,. California was the first to have this in their constitution. California is, without debate, the poster child of dysfunctional state government, failing in 16 of 20 years to balance its state budget by the legal deadline, in large part because of partisan gridlock. Mississippi is the poorest state in the nation. Nevada has the nation’s highest unemployment rate. Of the 10 states with some form of super-minority requirements, seven have unemployment rates above the national average; seven have per capita incomes below the national average. We don’t want Michigan to be Mississippi, California or any of the other states burdened by this extreme form of super-minority rule.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:25 Roger Martin

12:26

[Comment From ArtArt: ]

Lana, please answer the question. What constitutes a "tax increase" under Prop 5?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:26 Art

12:26

[Comment From KevinKevin: ]

Keep in mind that nobody ever takes roll call immediate effect votes because THEY WOULD NEVER PASS OTHERWISE.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:26 Kevin

12:26

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

If 2 robbers broke into my house, I don't think I'd be in favor of a majority vote on who gets my TV.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:26 Lewis

12:26

Meegan Holland | MLive:

Lewis, I'm with you on that one! :)

Friday October 5, 2012 12:26 Meegan Holland | MLive

12:26

Roger Martin:

Prop 5 also requires a supermajority vote to end tax breaks or loopholes that taxpayers hand out to special interests. Thus, Matty Moroun's support for it.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:26 Roger Martin

12:26

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

it takes 2/3 to send an issue to the voters to approve on the ballot but only 50% to take money from their pockets

Friday October 5, 2012 12:26 Michael Bouchard

12:26

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Good question Art.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:26 Lewis

12:26

Lana Theis, MAP:

The supreme court in Bolt vs. the City of Lansing has defined the difference between a tax and a fee.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:26 Lana Theis, MAP

12:26

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

many of those states are hugely dysfunctional not due to taxpayer protection

Friday October 5, 2012 12:26 Michael Bouchard

12:27

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

3/4 to amend an initiative law

Friday October 5, 2012 12:27 Michael Bouchard

12:27

Lana Theis, MAP:

There is one one tax credit left in the Michigan tax credit after recent reforms.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:27 Lana Theis, MAP

12:27

Roger Martin:

Welcome sheriff. The Michigan Sheriff's Association is opposed to Prop 5, as is the Michigan Association of Counties.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:27 Roger Martin

12:27

[Comment From GregGreg: ]

The cost to those that are opposed to a tax increase is great. Seems to make sense that the difficulty to raise taxes on the minority is harder.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:27 Greg

12:27

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

If the legislature cannot get the 2/3 support for a good idea, it can always be sent to the people, and a simple majority wins the day

Friday October 5, 2012 12:27 Guest

12:27

[Comment From DanDan: ]

Can anyone recall the last time an measure was approved by a two-thirds margin in the state legislature? I can't. Lessenberry said it best on Prop 5: http://metrotimes.com/columns/those-ballot-props-1.1382150

Friday October 5, 2012 12:27 Dan

12:27

Lana Theis, MAP:

The Citizens Research Council has detailed 15 parts of the Constitution that require a legislative super majority.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:27 Lana Theis, MAP

12:28

Roger Martin:

Under the current constitution and state laws, the Legislature already CAN put tax votes to the people. This is nothing new. We have that power already.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:28 Roger Martin

12:28

[Comment From Dave M - MI Catholic ConfDave M - MI Catholic Conf: ]

A California professor said in the Detroit News today about Proposal 5: "I don't know if I'd follow in our California footsteps" I agree - Michigan should not be like California as that state is on constant fiscal turmoil. http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121005/POLITICS01/210050367/Proposal-5-Supermajority-tax-support-mixed?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s

Friday October 5, 2012 12:28 Dave M - MI Catholic Conf

12:28

Lana Theis, MAP:

The Constiution prohibits the legislature from raising sales tax or adopting a graduated income tax. Even if 148 legislators vote for raising these taxes.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:28 Lana Theis, MAP

12:28

[Comment From DebDeb: ]

Roger, if one of your 'key' three points against this initiative is funding by a business, then we aren't really talking about the merits of the policy.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:28 Deb

12:29

Lana Theis, MAP:

Bottom line what is wrong with allowing the people of Michigan to vote on tax increases?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:29 Lana Theis, MAP

12:29

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

Dan, the legislation to regulate MI casinos got over 3/4 vote as required by law

Friday October 5, 2012 12:29 Michael Bouchard

12:29

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Comparing Michigan to California is silly, there are so many other issues at play.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:29 Lewis

12:29

Roger Martin:

Funding by a corporation that would benefit from the amendment. That is totally relevant. Voters deserve to know where this is coming from, who is bankrolling it.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:29 Roger Martin

12:29

[Comment From YonasYonas: ]

I am pretty sure the founders only used super-majority for approving the constitution and for approving amendments to it as well as approving general stuff in the senate like treaties and cabinet appointments.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:29 Yonas

12:29

[Comment From Kevin Downey MIHospitalsKevin Downey MIHospitals: ]

That's what lawmakers are for.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:29 Kevin Downey MIHospitals

12:29

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

The comparison to Nevada and Caifornia are such strawmen. Those states are plagued by disfunctional legislatures - trying to blame their woes on 2/3rds is nothing more than a silly scare tactic.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:29 Guest

12:30

Roger Martin:

The founders settled on majority rule democracy. End of story.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:30 Roger Martin

12:30

Lana Theis, MAP:

This proposal does not lower one tax. It is simply the people of Michigan putting a reasonable control on their elected officials.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:30 Lana Theis, MAP

12:30

[Comment From KevinKevin: ]

Can the proponents of Proposal 5 please point to a time when a tax increase was passed in Michigan with a 2/3rds majority? And if they can't, can they please tell me why taking away our ability to respond to a fiscal crisis quickly - instead having to wait until November - makes for good public policy?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:30 Kevin

12:30

[Comment From DebDeb: ]

Roger's third argument is the ol' fire & police routine. It's getting very old. Government needs to live within it's means as we do. That includes prioritizing and making choices.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:30 Deb

12:30

Roger Martin:

Kevin, we cant' find an instance when it has ever happened. This is about making Government impossible.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:30 Roger Martin

12:30

[Comment From DanDan: ]

Lana, that's exactly what's wrong with this proposal. Voters can't comprehend and form informed decisions on tax policies - that's why we have REPRESENTATIVE government. Our founders recognized that.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:30 Dan

12:30

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

and most of the people opposing get tax monies or want to be able to raise them more easily Roger

Friday October 5, 2012 12:30 Michael Bouchard

12:30

Lana Theis, MAP:

Federalist paper No. 58 noted that the threshold would serve as "a shield to some particular interests."

Friday October 5, 2012 12:30 Lana Theis, MAP

12:31

[Comment From Mary - Lake OrionMary - Lake Orion: ]

Lana Theis - I believe very much that the ENEMIES of the Headlee Tax Limitation Amendment will eventually do everything in the power to rescind the Headlee if Proposal 5 passes. Therefore I will vote NO on Proposal 5.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:31 Mary - Lake Orion

12:31

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

This is what this issue seems to be about, do we think it should be easier or harder for Michiganders to be taxed? At a time when the economy is struggling, making it easier to raise taxes seems like a bad idea.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:31 Lewis

12:31

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

sorry again Roger, we are a constitutional republic not a democracy

Friday October 5, 2012 12:31 Michael Bouchard

12:31

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

+1 for Deb

Friday October 5, 2012 12:31 Lewis

12:31

[Comment From AnnieAnnie: ]

Roger - What about the electoral college system? What about equal representative of states (regardless of population) in the Senate. Is that majority rule?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:31 Annie

12:31

Lana Theis, MAP:

Proposal A which raised sales tax from 4 to 6 percent went to the people for approval.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:31 Lana Theis, MAP

12:31

[Comment From YonasYonas: ]

Why approve this proposal now?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:31 Yonas

12:31

[Comment From JudyJudy: ]

It is absolutely relevant what has occurred in any other states that have adopted it. I do not want Michigan to follow in the footsteps of CA, NV or MS

Friday October 5, 2012 12:31 Judy

12:31

Roger Martin:

Sheriff, the Michigan Chamber, Grand Rapids Chamber, Traverse City Chamber, Michigan Manufacuturers, Detroit News, Detroit Free Press ... I can keep going ... all opposed. Don't see them clamoring for tax hikes.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:31 Roger Martin

12:32

[Comment From KristinaKristina: ]

would this amendment also make it harder to lower taxes?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:32 Kristina

12:32

Lana Theis, MAP:

Our legislature has never had to approve a tax increase with a 2/3 majority. Politicians wouldn't put themselves on the line like that.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:32 Lana Theis, MAP

12:32

[Comment From DanDan: ]

When has a two-thirds majority been achieved? Still no examples.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:32 Dan

12:32

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

really Roger, they don't want to raise the gas tax?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:32 Michael Bouchard

12:32

Lana Theis, MAP:

It does not take a super majority to lower taxes.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:32 Lana Theis, MAP

12:32

[Comment From KevinKevin: ]

Lana, you forgot to mention the line RIGHT AFTER THAT in Federalist 58: "It might have been an additional shield to some particular interests, and another obstacle generally to hasty and partial measures. But these considerations are outweighed by the inconveniences in the opposite scale. In all cases where justice or the general good might require new laws to be passed, or active measures to be pursued, the fundamental principle of free government would be reversed. It would be no longer the majority that would rule: the power would be transferred to the minority."

Friday October 5, 2012 12:32 Kevin

12:32

Roger Martin:

Taxes never pass without it being part of a package, as the Governor, The Detroit News and others have noted. They and others are concerned that cutting taxes would not become impossible, just far more difficult.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:32 Roger Martin

12:33

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Judy - Does CA have a spending problem, or a revenue problem? You don't tell someone who is broke they simply aren't working enough, you tell them to spend less.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:33 Lewis

12:33

[Comment From KevinKevin: ]

That appears to me that Madison would have been opposed to Proposal 5.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:33 Kevin

12:33

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

I gave you more than one example Dan

Friday October 5, 2012 12:33 Michael Bouchard

12:33

[Comment From Dave M - MI Catholic ConfDave M - MI Catholic Conf: ]

Great point, Judy. Couldn't the 2007 MI Legislature be called dysfunctional when it resorted to shutdown rather than compromise? How would 2/3 ever have been possible then? Too much partisan gridlock leads to improbable likelihood of 2/3 support.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:33 Dave M - MI Catholic Conf

12:33

Lana Theis, MAP:

That is Lansing Speak Roger. If the legislature wants to gouge one person then they need a 2/3rd to increase taxes on that person.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:33 Lana Theis, MAP

12:34

Lana Theis, MAP:

Governor Scott Walker signed this legislation last year in Wisconsin.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:34 Lana Theis, MAP

12:33

[Comment From AmyAmy: ]

Roger: Yes, you do Roger. Many of them are clamoring for a gas tax increase in the next few months

Friday October 5, 2012 12:33 Amy

12:34

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Roger recognizes that a vote on taxes can go to the people - and win with a simple majority. So why all the scare tactics with claiming there will be massive gridlock.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:34 Guest

12:34

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Madison would also be sickened by all the things governments currently do.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:34 Lewis

12:34

Tim Martin:

What is the rationale for making this particular proposal right now, this year?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:34 Tim Martin

12:34

Lana Theis, MAP:

In addition by the opposition's own chart 7 of the states that have super majorities have higher per capita income and lower unemployment rates than Michigan.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:34 Lana Theis, MAP

12:35

[Comment From YonasYonas: ]

Technically Michael Bouchard is right but "constitutional republic" is just a more specific term for our type of "democracy."

Friday October 5, 2012 12:35 Yonas

12:35

Lana Theis, MAP:

We need tax protections. There will never be a perfect time to start it. The time to protect our pocket books is now. Our economy demands it.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:35 Lana Theis, MAP

12:35

Lana Theis, MAP:

Politicians just raised income taxes on individuals and seniors last year.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:35 Lana Theis, MAP

12:36

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

If the legislature cannot get a 2/3 agreement, they can make the case to the people who will be paying the tax and see if us taxpayers agree that this warrants a tax increase.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:36 Guest

12:36

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

No Roger, the founders did not settle on simple majority rule. There are numerous areas where a supermajority is required in the constitution - because those topics are important. Read your constitutuion

Friday October 5, 2012 12:36 Guest

12:36

[Comment From DanDan: ]

Specific to tax policies. The Casino referendum didn't raise taxes. There aren't any examples relating to specific tax increases or decreases that received a two-thirds majority.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:36 Dan

12:36

[Comment From DanDan: ]

Lana, not by a two-thirds majority.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:36 Dan

12:36

Roger Martin:

One other point about Prop 5 noted by the Citizens Research Council. Local taxes go up. Supporters of Proposal 5 apparently are willing to condemn local taxpayers in Michigan to a future of higher local taxes and higher local fees. The totally independent Citizens Research Council and Detroit Free Press warn that is exactly what has happened in other states that have these radical super-minority provisions in their constitutions. We presume Lana doesn’t care if the citizens of her Brighton Township end up paying higher local taxes if this passes.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:36 Roger Martin

12:36

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

Tim, to the question of right now, this year.- I introduced this in the 90's in the senate and had 22 supporters to send it to the voters to be heard. The irony is it requires 2/3 majority to ask voters to decide and 50% to take money from their pockets

Friday October 5, 2012 12:36 Michael Bouchard

12:36

Lana Theis, MAP:

Governor Snyder has said he wants to raise gasoline taxes by $1.4 billion. Michigan already has the 5th highest tax on gasoline in the country. This proposal would require a 2/3 vote or permission from the people who pay the bill.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:36 Lana Theis, MAP

12:36

[Comment From GregGreg: ]

Roger, according to your website 6 of 9 states with a supermajority have lower unemployment rates than Michigan. Also, 7 of 9 have higher per capita incomes. Wouldn't this mean that a 2/3 supermajority is incredibly effective?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:36 Greg

12:37

Roger Martin:

Only a handful of states have super-minority requirements, and they tend to be poorer, or have struggling economies and ongoing state budget crises. California was the first to have this in their constitution. California is, without debate, the poster child of dysfunctional state government, failing in 16 of 20 years to balance its state budget by the legal deadline, in large part because of partisan gridlock. Mississippi is the poorest state in the nation. Nevada has the nation’s highest unemployment rate. Of the 10 states with some form of super-minority requirements, seven have unemployment rates above the national average; seven have per capita incomes below the national average. We don’t want Michigan to be Mississippi, California or any of the other states burdened by this extreme form of super-minority rule.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:37 Roger Martin

12:37

[Comment From KevinKevin: ]

Can someone who supports Proposal 5 please respond to James Madison's argument? You know, the one Lana tried to quote out of context that actually said the exact opposite of what she is arguing?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:37 Kevin

12:37

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

There are numerous taxes in the casino act Dan

Friday October 5, 2012 12:37 Michael Bouchard

12:37

Lana Theis, MAP:

Michigan has a higher unemployment rate than Mississippi.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:37 Lana Theis, MAP

12:38

Roger Martin:

Right, and Proposal E was passed by the voters. We can already settle tax questions on the statewide ballot.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:38 Roger Martin

12:38

[Comment From DebDeb: ]

Roger, our taxes take over 50% of our income when you count in all the 'little' taxes. When is enough enough? I say it should be harder to raise taxes and that taking over 50% of our income is outrageous and it should be harder to raise them. I think 80% or more should have to agree to raise them!

Friday October 5, 2012 12:38 Deb

12:38

Lana Theis, MAP:

It was taken from the CRC report. The CRC is the Citizens Research Counci which is a highly respected non-partisan organization.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:38 Lana Theis, MAP

12:38

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Less taxes going to the state, means more money to spend at the local level. Why wouldn't you want your tax money spent on goods/services closer to you?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:38 Lewis

12:38

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Roger - Be real - it is special interest that hates this amendment. They know that it threatens their little fiefdoms.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:38 Guest

12:39

Tim Martin:

Some have suggested that if the state can’t raise taxes, it will just figure out ways to make citizens pay by other methods. For example: Couldn’t the state just raise fees – such as those for driver’s licenses and vehicle registrations – if it couldn’t get two-thirds support to raise gas taxes? Thoughts?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:39 Tim Martin

12:39

[Comment From KevinKevin: ]

Anyone? *crickets* Bueller? Bueller?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:39 Kevin

12:39

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

+1 for use of the word fiefdoms.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:39 Lewis

12:39

Lana Theis, MAP:

Fees can be raised with a simple majority. This proposal would encourage our legislators to reform and make more efficient use of our money.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:39 Lana Theis, MAP

12:39

Roger Martin:

Tim, yes. The Citizens Research Council just noted that and that local taxes increase too.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:39 Roger Martin

12:39

Jen Eyer | MLive.com:

Kevin: Lana answered the question about the Federalist Papers at 12:38.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:39 Jen Eyer | MLive.com

12:40

[Comment From Peter RuarkPeter Ruark: ]

Lana, August 2012 was the first month in almost a year that the Mississippi unemployment rate was higher than Michigan's.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:40 Peter Ruark

12:40

[Comment From Mary - Lake OrionMary - Lake Orion: ]

Michael Bouchard - I don't get tax monies nor do I wish to raise taxes. I've been a grassroots activist going back to recalling Senator Mastin under the Blanchard administration. I firmly believe that Proposal 5 will harm the Headlee Amendment. We will see the ENEMIES of the Headlee Amendment come out of the woodwork to work vigilantly to have it rescinded.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:40 Mary - Lake Orion

12:40

Lana Theis, MAP:

In addition, this will force them to focus on policies that encourage economic growth and not tax increases. Economic growth is the way to increasing revenues not soaking the taxpayers of Michigan.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:40 Lana Theis, MAP

12:40

Roger Martin:

And Mississippi is the nation's poorest state. We don't want to be them.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:40 Roger Martin

12:40

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Unemployment is currently high in Michigan, end of story.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:40 Lewis

12:41

[Comment From KevinKevin: ]

Jen - no, she only said this: "It was taken from the CRC report. The CRC is the Citizens Research Counci which is a highly respected non-partisan organization." which does not clash with Madison's argument about minority rule at all.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:41 Kevin

12:41

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

Tim, you can never get the large amounts of monies through fees that you can thru the staples of taxes that are identified in the proposal.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:41 Michael Bouchard

12:41

Lana Theis, MAP:

I am a huge proponent of the Headlee Amendment and this does not in any way harm Headlee. Headlee and Prop A saved local government and as a local official this is important to me.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:41 Lana Theis, MAP

12:41

Meegan Holland | MLive:

Mary - Lake Orion, can you give a brief explanation of the Headlee amendment for those who aren't familiar with it? It was a huge issue back in the '90s!

Friday October 5, 2012 12:41 Meegan Holland | MLive

12:42

[Comment From Peter RuarkPeter Ruark: ]

"Lana, August 2012 was the first month in almost a year that the Mississippi unemployment rate was higher than Michigan's." Sorry, I menat to write "wasn't higher than Michigan's."

Friday October 5, 2012 12:42 Peter Ruark

12:42

Let's get a read on our crowd: Will you vote for Proposal 5?
Yes

( 38% )

( 62% )

Friday October 5, 2012 12:42

12:42

[Comment From DebDeb: ]

12:40 Lana nailed it!

Friday October 5, 2012 12:42 Deb

12:42

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

I thank you for your tax vigilance Mary, and I support Headlee-just have different conclusion that this will diminish it

Friday October 5, 2012 12:42 Michael Bouchard

12:42

Tim Martin:

Supporters of Proposal 5 say it could put more focus on how state government spends taxpayer money, rather than how it raises taxpayer money. A goal is to make government more efficient with the money it has. How would you rate the efficiency of state government now?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:42 Tim Martin

12:43

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Michigan - High unemployment, hundreds of thousands of people leaving the state, $45+ billion budget which probably hasn't gotten smaller compared to population, and we are paying Hollywood to make movies here, and we are concerned about it being slightly more difficult to raise taxes?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:43 Lewis

12:43

Roger Martin:

I certainly believe there is waste in government, and I agree government can be more efficient. I don't think government should be impossible, however, and this makes it impossible for state government to pass balanced solutions to fiscal problems. Giving 13 senators super minority power is not a good answer to any question.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:43 Roger Martin

12:44

Lana Theis, MAP:

State and local employees have much higher benefits than private sector employees. The Mackinac Center for Public Policy did a study and if government workers had the same amount of benefits then Michigan taxpayers would save $5.7 billion.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:44 Lana Theis, MAP

12:44

[Comment From AmyAmy: ]

The opposition to Proposal 5 keeps trying to claim that the supermajority for tax increases in Mississippi is the reason they rank where they do economically. Do you have any data to support that? Academic research? Something from an economist? Something other than rhetoric?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:44 Amy

12:44

Lana Theis, MAP:

Mississippi has had 45 percent income growth since 2000. Michigan was only about 20 percent.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:44 Lana Theis, MAP

12:44

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

I agree with that conclusion Tim-it will force re-examination of priorities and efficiencies before raising taxes

Friday October 5, 2012 12:44 Michael Bouchard

12:44

Roger Martin:

Read the state's unemployment rate and per capita income numbers. They are they poorest in the nation.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:44 Roger Martin

12:45

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

If collective bargaining passes, this would be a last line of defense for non union taxpayers.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:45 Lewis

12:45

[Comment From KevinKevin: ]

Of course, Lana leaves out that public sector workers generally have lower wages corresponding to these higher benefits, but you know, why not leave out more context. It seems to be a theme.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:45 Kevin

12:45

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Guess what, I don't care about Mississippi.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:45 Lewis

12:45

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Roger, it doesn't make it impossible, just more difficult. The rest of us have to balance a budget without additional revenue. if they are going to take more of our money, a lot of agreement should be required, or a simple majority vote of the people.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:45 Guest

12:45

Tim Martin:

Some of the other proposals on Michigan’s statewide November ballot are getting far more attention than Proposal 5. Does that help or hurt its chances of passing?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:45 Tim Martin

12:45

[Comment From DanDan: ]

Matty Moroun, the essentially lone funder for Prop 5, supports Prop 5 - Isn't this special interest the type of issue we're trying to keep out of governemt. The supporters of Prop 5 have let in the very thing they want to keep out of government.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:45 Dan

12:46

[Comment From Mary - Lake OrionMary - Lake Orion: ]

For one thing the Headlee Amendment protects the right of the taxpayers to vote on Local Tax Increases and calls on a Headlee over-ride call for a vote of the people. This is one of the main reasons why the ENEMIES of the Headlee Tax Limitation Amendment have been pushing for it to be rescinded.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:46 Mary - Lake Orion

12:46

[Comment From Peter RuarkPeter Ruark: ]

And Mississippi has one of the worst rates of child poverty and high school dropout. Yes, let's imitate Mississippi.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:46 Peter Ruark

12:46

[Comment From AmyAmy: ]

That wasn't the question. How is the supermajority the cause?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:46 Amy

12:46

Roger Martin:

We know the more people learn about this, the less they like it. We are working hard to get the word out, and it's why so, so many leaders and organizations are opposed, as well as every newspaper editorial paged that has weighed in on the issue to date, including Lana's county newspaper.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:46 Roger Martin

12:46

[Comment From KevinKevin: ]

Dan, they're only special interests if they're opposed to what you want.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:46 Kevin

12:46

Lana Theis, MAP:

Education on the issues is important and I believe the bottom line is that this proposal is direct and straightforward so when people read it in on the I believe they will vote yes.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:46 Lana Theis, MAP

12:46

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

If Moroun loves bacon, that doesn't mean I'm going to hate it! A good idea is a good idea. Bacon is amazing good btw.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:46 Lewis

12:46

[Comment From DanDan: ]

Data can't lie; Mississippi is the poorest state in the nation because they can't get a two-thirds majority to raise revenue and create a balanced budget to provide proper education and for their citizens. The correlation is obvious.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:46 Dan

12:47

Meegan Holland | MLive:

Lewis, we agree on bacon, too.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:47 Meegan Holland | MLive

12:47

[Comment From AmyAmy: ]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rexsinquefield/2012/10/03/strangled-by-taxes-will-michigan-loosen-the-states-grip/

Friday October 5, 2012 12:47 Amy

12:47

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

+1 Amy's question.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:47 Lewis

12:47

Roger Martin:

I love bacon too!

Friday October 5, 2012 12:47 Roger Martin

12:47

[Comment From Michael BouchardMichael Bouchard: ]

so all these folks clamoring to say we will become CA and Miss believe easier to raise taxes mean more stable

Friday October 5, 2012 12:47 Michael Bouchard

12:47

[Comment From Mary - Lake OrionMary - Lake Orion: ]

Lana Theis - I can see many court challenges to Proposal 5 because of the way it was written.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:47 Mary - Lake Orion

12:47

Lana Theis, MAP:

Kevin that was true at one time but no longer. Michigan private sector workers - union and non-union are hurting. This proposal will protect the people of Michigan from the Lansing tax and spend crowd.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:47 Lana Theis, MAP

12:47

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Dan, who benefits from Prop 5? Is it just Matty Moroun? No, it is every Michigan citizen. Does that make us a special interest group?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:47 Guest

12:48

[Comment From DanDan: ]

Special interests are bad unless...they're funding your campaign.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:48 Dan

12:48

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

The state has been shifting and increasing taxes even after Headlee. It is time we slowed them down. They are trying now to divert the revenue from the parking tax at the airport to go to the Medicade fund when it should be expiring.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:48 Guest

12:48

[Comment From DanDan: ]

That's what supporters from Prop 5 are showing us.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:48 Dan

12:48

[Comment From AmyAmy: ]

Don't use Lansing speak Dan. It's not raising revenue - it's raising taxes. Taking money from me and my family's household budget. And by the way - correlations aren't causation. Give me some data that demonstrates causation. You're just giving me more rhetoric.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:48 Amy

12:48

[Comment From GregGreg: ]

Unemployment Rank (according to Roger's site) Delaware - 6.7 Louisiana - 7.5 Arizona - 8.2 Colorado - 8.3 Oregon - 8.5 Washington - 8.5 Michigan - 8.6 Mississippi - 8.8 California - 10.7 Nevada - 11.6

Friday October 5, 2012 12:48 Greg

12:49

Lana Theis, MAP:

This is a constitutional amendment so court challenges would be minimal. The language is very clear. The Michigan supreme court has already ruled 7 to 0 that this does not alter or abrogate the Headlee Amendment.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:49 Lana Theis, MAP

12:49

[Comment From KevinKevin: ]

Why do the proponents of proposal 5 think that this is good public policy, when every newspaper, the Republican governor, conservative and progressive groups and nearly every Democratic official in the state say this is a bad idea?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:49 Kevin

12:49

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

I bet if we raise taxes, businesses will want to hire more people. - Said no one

Friday October 5, 2012 12:49 Lewis

12:49

[Comment From DanDan: ]

Moroun is devoted to Prop 5 because it guarantees him tax loops and incentives that he knows a two-thirds majority will never agree to. It's rather obvious, even to the uninformed. A billionaire doesn't like the idea of taxes - Moroun knows that he'll never have a tax increase under Prop 5.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:49 Dan

12:50

[Comment From AnnieAnnie: ]

Kevin - the fact that the Lansing political elite opposes it gives me one more reason to support Prop 5

Friday October 5, 2012 12:50 Annie

12:50

Roger Martin:

Everyone, state taxes in Michigan today are down 20% as a share of personal income since 1998-99. When Mike Bouschard was in the Legislature, he helped bring our taxes down and into line. It is not true that Michigan is a high-tax state any longer. It is simply not true.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:50 Roger Martin

12:50

[Comment From AndreaAndrea: ]

Because it is a bad idea, Kevin! Vote NO on Prop 5!

Friday October 5, 2012 12:50 Andrea

12:50

Lana Theis, MAP:

Kevin yoru premise is wrong. Groups that want easy access to taxp dollars oppose this. Governor Snyder and the State Chamber want to increase the gas tax substantially. Michigan already has the 5th highest tax on gasoline in the country.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:50 Lana Theis, MAP

12:50

[Comment From KevinKevin: ]

Lana - A study was done in 2009 that said public workers make up to 36 percent less than their private sector counterparts. Which study are you referring to that refutes this? Please provide soruces. Citation: http://bridgemi.com/2012/01/feeling-unloved-skilled-public-employees-are-leaving-michigan/

Friday October 5, 2012 12:50 Kevin

12:50

Roger Martin:

What is the Lansing political elite? The Grand Rapids Area Chamber of Commerce, the Traverse City Area Chamber, the Cadillac Manufacturing Association, the Grand Valley Metro Council, the Detroit News, the Detroit Free Press, the Livingston Daily (Lana’s local newspaper), the Taxpayers United Foundation, cops and firefighters across the state, hospitals across the state, the leader of the southwest Michigan Tea Party, Democrats and Republicans across the state and more oppose. I tell you what though. If these are “Lansing insiders,” I’m sure we all agree they care a lot more about what is best for Michigan than the Washington, DC lobbyist who announced yesterday that he is going to fund the rest of your campaign and the Detroit billionaire who has given you millions to protect his tax cuts and loopholes.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:50 Roger Martin

12:50

Lana Theis, MAP:

Roger just said that we should be increasing taxes by 20 percent.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:50 Lana Theis, MAP

12:51

[Comment From JudyJudy: ]

I wouldn't call Taxpayers United and members of Tea Party Lansing insiders

Friday October 5, 2012 12:51 Judy

12:51

[Comment From Rose BogaertRose Bogaert: ]

I wonder if some of these people even read the proposal or the Headlee Amendment

Friday October 5, 2012 12:51 Rose Bogaert

12:51

[Comment From DanDan: ]

You can't have it both ways. We want better schools, better roads, lower tuition rates, etc. but without increasing revenue and demanding a balanced budget these things are unattainable - Prop 5 guarantees an ineffective government.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:51 Dan

12:51

Lana Theis, MAP:

There are a lot of studies out there but the bottom line is this proposal protects Michigan politicians from tax and spend Lansing insiders.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:51 Lana Theis, MAP

12:51

[Comment From DebDeb: ]

Roger, "makes it impossible for state government to pass balanced solutions to fiscal problems" is political speak for : we can't decide and don't want to look bad so we will just quietly raise taxes in the middle of some bill with a simple majority.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:51 Deb

12:52

Roger Martin:

Lansing insiders, bunk. The Grand Rapids Area Chamber of Commerce, the Traverse City Area Chamber, the Cadillac Manufacturing Association, the Grand Valley Metro Council, the Detroit News, the Detroit Free Press, the Livingston Daily (Lana’s local newspaper), the Taxpayers United Foundation, cops and firefighters across the state, hospitals across the state, the leader of the southwest Michigan Tea Party, Democrats and Republicans across the state and more oppose. I tell you what though. If these are “Lansing insiders,” I’m sure we all agree they care a lot more about what is best for Michigan than the Washington, DC lobbyist who announced yesterday that he is going to fund the rest of your campaign and the Detroit billionaire who has given you millions to protect his tax cuts and loopholes.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:52 Roger Martin

12:52

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

My copy is hard to read, I can almost see through it, it is covered in bacon grease.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:52 Lewis

12:52

[Comment From GuestGuest: ]

Kevin, the legislators do not like it because they know that will have a hard time handing out goodies if we have this in place.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:52 Guest

12:52

[Comment From DanDan: ]

There's a reason so many diverse groups are opposed - Prop 5 is bad government.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:52 Dan

12:52

Roger Martin:

No. I just said taxes are down, in part because of people like Mike Bouschard.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:52 Roger Martin

12:53

Meegan Holland | MLive:

We're going to wrap up soon. Our guest panelists now have their shot at a closing statement. Go for it!

Friday October 5, 2012 12:53 Meegan Holland | MLive

12:53

Lana Theis, MAP:

The working people of Michigan can't participate because they are at work so it is no surprise on the poll.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:53 Lana Theis, MAP

12:53

[Comment From DebDeb: ]

Mississippi is a diversion here. If it's poor then what difference would a supermajority or not make? You can't get water from a stone. Same goes with taxes. You can't get taxes from poor people. You need a strong economy, raising taxes hurts the economy, so why make it easy to kill the economy? Haven't we already done that?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:53 Deb

12:53

Roger Martin:

This is matchup of Michigan people and organizations trying to defeat Proposal 5 and super-minority rule against a Detroit billionaire and a controversial and scandal-ridden Washington, DC lobbyist who are the money behind trying to pass it. Don’t let a Detroit billionaire and Grover Norquist’s Washington, DC super PAC hijack our constitution. We need to VOTE NO on Proposal 5.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:53 Roger Martin

12:53

[Comment From KevinKevin: ]

So, on one side, we have Matty Moroun and Grover Norquist. On the other, we have pretty much every group in Michigan from the entirety of the political spectrum - and we're discounting them all as "Lansing insiders?" Man, using buzzwords over and over really does work.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:53 Kevin

12:54

Lana Theis, MAP:

Yes on Prop five protects taxpayers from unnecessary tax increases and from politicians pet projects. It says to the country that we are open for business.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:54 Lana Theis, MAP

12:54

[Comment From Peter RuarkPeter Ruark: ]

Americans for Prosperity is mostly out of state money, and of course Grover Norquist and his ATR are all out of state interests. Why is this campaign attracting so much Maroun and out-of-state support? How about the well connected, ashington-based AFP and ATR stay out of our Michigan issues and mind hteir own business and let MICHIGAN residents decide?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:54 Peter Ruark

12:54

[Comment From JudyJudy: ]

+1 for Kevin

Friday October 5, 2012 12:54 Judy

12:54

Roger Martin:

Here here Peter!

Friday October 5, 2012 12:54 Roger Martin

12:54

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

So, in summary, if I like higher taxes, vote no. If I can spend my money better than Lansing, vote yes?

Friday October 5, 2012 12:54 Lewis

12:55

[Comment From DebDeb: ]

Kevin, our Gov is republican only by the R he puts after his name.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:55 Deb

12:55

[Comment From AndreaAndrea: ]

Exactly, Kevin!

Friday October 5, 2012 12:55 Andrea

12:55

[Comment From Rose BogaertRose Bogaert: ]

I have been defending the Headlee Amendment for 30 years both in and out of court. It works well at the local level but on the state level they have been shifting and raising taxes for years.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:55 Rose Bogaert

12:55

Lana Theis, MAP:

Yes on Prop 5 is the way future for economic growth. It is time the people of Michigan put common sense controls on Lansing politicians.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:55 Lana Theis, MAP

12:55

Roger Martin:

No, if you oppose minority rule, vote NO. If you support it, vote yes.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:55 Roger Martin

12:55

Lana Theis, MAP:

Yes on Prop 5 because it protects Michigan taxpayers from special interest groups that are asking for more money.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:55 Lana Theis, MAP

12:56

Lana Theis, MAP:

Yes on Prop 5 preserves majority rule of the people. Michigan already has a super majority requirement to raise certain property taxes. This simply extends that rule to all tax increases.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:56 Lana Theis, MAP

12:56

Roger Martin:

We are opposed to Proposal 5 for three main reasons: First, it creates super-minority rule in Lansing, giving unprecedented new powers to just 13 state senators. Second, the campaign to pass this super-minority amendment is funded almost entirely by one Detroit billionaire and now, as of yesterday, a scandal-ridden Wasington, DC lobbyist and his out-of-state super PAC. Third and finally, it would drive local taxes and fees higher, would lead to even more gridlock in Lansing, and would almost guarantee more cuts to local police and fire protection , to roads across Michigan, to our public schools, to our colleges and universities, to health care for more than 1.6 million Michigan children and seniors across Michigan, and more.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:56 Roger Martin

12:57

Meegan Holland | MLive:

Ok everybody, thanks so much for participating in the chat! Great questions and a lively debate. Come back next week, as part of our Michigan Decides 2012 series, when we talk about Proposal 6, the proposal that challenges the need for a second Detroit-Windsor bridge.

Friday October 5, 2012 12:57 Meegan Holland | MLive

12:57

Meegan Holland | MLive:

Thanks especially to Lana Theis and Roger Martin!

Friday October 5, 2012 12:57 Meegan Holland | MLive

12:57

[Comment From LewisLewis: ]

Thanks!

Friday October 5, 2012 12:57 Lewis

12:58

Jen Eyer | MLive.com:

Thanks everyone for participating. Readers, if you'd like to continue discussing the issue in the comments section below, please do!