Terror Blog Live!
5:51
Channel4News: 
Coming soon - Terror Blog Live!

We'll feature live, interactive commentary on the debate as it happens and give you the chance to join in and post questions for our studio guests before Channel 4 News goes on air at 7pm.

Join us Wednesday from 2.45pm...

Tuesday June 10, 2008 5:51 Channel4News
5:55
Channel4News: 
Don't forget to join the debate and post questions for our studio guests...
Tuesday June 10, 2008 5:55 Channel4News
5:58
Channel4News: 
Go to channel4.com/terrorbloglive  and follow the action
Tuesday June 10, 2008 5:58 Channel4News
7:17
[Standby]  We'll be back at 2.45pm on Wednesday when Terror Blog Live goes... live.
10:48
Channel4News: 
Actually, we're back a little early today. We now understand the debate will start at 12.50pm. We'll start blogging in earnet then...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 10:48 Channel4News
10:58
Channel4News: 
We'll be ready for busy after News at Noon
Wednesday June 11, 2008 10:58 Channel4News
11:59
BenKing: 
Morning everyone! Welcome to our live blog coverage of this vital debate on locking up terror suspects. We'll kick off with Prime Minister's Questions in  a couple of minutes.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 11:59 BenKing
12:03
BenKing: 
Greg Hands launches the first question... nasty one too. He apparently lists no achievements for the past year on his website. Gordon dismisses it as 'schoolboy politics'.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:03 BenKing
12:04
BenKing: 

Next question is on terror. Gordon doesn't manage to finish it before the speaker has to intervene to quell the jeers.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:04 BenKing
12:05
Channel4News: 

Brown lays out the standard defence for 42 days - already need 28 days, and the cases will get more complex.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:05 Channel4News
12:07
Channel4News: 
David Cameron's first question  - it's on Afghanistan. Not sticking it to Brown on the tough issues just yet. Brown talks up Afghan democracy.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:07 Channel4News
12:09
Channel4News: 
Ahhh! Here's the six week question. How can Brown support 42 days when the director of the DPP doesn't?
 
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:09 Channel4News
12:10
Channel4News: 

Brown quote Ken Jones, Hugh Orde and Lord Stevens as supporters of his argument.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:10 Channel4News
12:12
Channel4News: 
Cameron: "Yes there are a lot of police who support it, but there are a lot of police who don't". We're doing the terrorists work for them by trashing our own freedoms.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:12 Channel4News
12:12
Channel4News: 
Brown - "we have to take no risks with security"
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:12 Channel4News
12:13
Channel4News: 
Cameron brings up the Conservative members killed by the IRA in the Brighton bombing.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:13 Channel4News
12:13
Channel4News: 
Cameron - Brown has made "so many concessions he has an unworkable piece of legislation."
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:13 Channel4News
12:14
Channel4News: 
More shouting - the speaker has to intervene again.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:14 Channel4News
12:16
Channel4News: 

Brown cites the support of an unlikely source for 42 days - ConservativeHome.com. Cameron says it's 'below the  level of debate'.  Touche! Banging up terrorists is popular, but  we have to do what's right, he says.  

Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:16 Channel4News
12:18
Channel4News: 
Kali Mountford of Colne Valley moves the debate on to bone marrow transplants.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:18 Channel4News
12:19
Channel4News: 
Clegg comes back to 42 days. How can you let parliament debate an individual case without prejudicing that case or letting secret intelligence out of the bag?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:19 Channel4News
12:20
Channel4News: 

Nick Clegg says that the Lords will block it. If they don't the European court of human rights will. Is Brown playing empty politics with our liberties? Surely not.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:20 Channel4News
12:21
Channel4News: 
Brown: "It is not only popular it is also necessary and right." Is that the principle that inspired the abolition of the 10p tax rate too?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:21 Channel4News
12:21
Channel4News: 
Jim Sheridan wants to know that it only applies to terrorists. Brown says it does.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:21 Channel4News
12:22
Channel4News: 
Is it just me, or is Douglas Alexander looking increasingly bored?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:22 Channel4News
12:23
Channel4News: 
David Gauke (Con) brings up the C4 doco, Gordon, where did it all go wrong? and of course the 10p debacle. Brown gives his usual response - a list of numbers.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:23 Channel4News
12:24
Channel4News: 
Celia Barlow of Hove wants to know about Brown's measures for looking after elderly carers. A bit of respite for the increasingly weary-looking Mr Brown.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:24 Channel4News
12:24
Channel4News: 

The Dispatches show is here, if anyone wants to re-live Brown's year of unglory.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:24 Channel4News
12:25
Channel4News: 
James Clappison brings up the Irish referendum on the latest European treaty. 'Not a fundamental change to our constitution', says Brown.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:25 Channel4News
12:26
Channel4News: 
Dawn Butler wants more money for other leisure activities, after Brown's free swimming initiative last week. Brown is eyeing up the funds in dormant building society accounts.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:26 Channel4News
12:28
Channel4News: 
Ahh! Michael Howard brings it back to the proper business of the day - how can you debate a decision on detaining someone for 42 days without prejudicing the case? Michael Howard knows a lot about not answering questions, says Brown  - is this a reference to the famous Paxman questioning of many years ago?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:28 Channel4News
12:29
Channel4News: 
Nearly over  - Brown seems to have a pretty easy ride this time. Not much Punch and Judy fun this week. Are they keeping their powder dry for later on?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:29 Channel4News
12:33
Channel4News: 
SNP Pete Wishart wants North Sea oil money for a Scottish sovereign wealth fund. Brown surprisingly says no. And that's all over. Much hubbub as MPs leave the chamber. And it's lunchtime for us - back in a little while when the terror debate starts again.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:33 Channel4News
12:48
Channel4News: 
Debate underway. Jacqui Smith caught us all out by speaking earlier than advertised. Very short lunch.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:48 Channel4News
12:50
Channel4News: 
Disaster - I still need at least one bacon sandwich to blow the dust from last night's canape reception away. So do most of the members,  by the looks of things  - the place is more than  half empty and the atmosphere is rather like the third day of a rain-affected county cricket match.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:50 Channel4News
12:50
Channel4News: 

Just in from the Whip's office - the first vote is due at 1800. That's on the government amendment, and unless the rebels win, our fun is over for the day. If they lose, then there's a vote on Andrew Dismore's amendment on removing 42 days from the bill. The rebels need to win this too to carry the day.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:50 Channel4News
12:53
Channel4News: 
The smart money suggests the government will squeeze through - but we'll be keeping an eye on this throughout the afternoon.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:53 Channel4News
12:54
Channel4News: 
The usual suspect arguments are coming thick and fast - the home sec is defending the new laws against suggestions that the Civil Contingencies Act would do the job just fine, if Britain really faced such a terror-heavy situation.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:54 Channel4News
12:55
Channel4News: 
Oh no - she's about to make "a little bit of progress", she tells us...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:55 Channel4News
12:55
Channel4News: 
...but sadly has to give way to a Labour MP before we hear any stunning new argument.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 12:55 Channel4News
1:00
Channel4News: 

Smith boasts that she and home office minister Tony McNulty have been looking over the terror proposals for more than a year. Oh no, she corrects herself quickly after a glance at the front bench, he has been doing this for much longer.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:00 Channel4News
1:00
Channel4News: 
The shadow attorney general is on his feet, pulling up an answer at PMQs earlier.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:00 Channel4News
1:02
Channel4News: 
And for those catching up, here's our report from Channel 4 News at Noon:

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Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:02 Channel4News
1:02
Channel4News: 
But the SAG is pulled up himself by the speaker for suggesting that the PM knowingly gave false information - a big no no in the place of the right honourable members.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:02 Channel4News
1:02
Channel4News: 
Video not quite as planned above. We'll look into it...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:02 Channel4News
1:03
Channel4News: 

The home sec is charging full on into the red rag of those who say there is no evidence for the 42-day extension.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:03 Channel4News
1:05
Channel4News: 

She has laid out evidence of the increasing scale and complexity of terrorist plots, she tells us, and there's nothing else that could be done but show a case of a terrorist who walked free because of a  too-short detention limit.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:05 Channel4News
1:06
Channel4News: 
Sammy Wilson of the DUP is on his feet!
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:06 Channel4News
1:06
Channel4News: 
The way the party chooses to vote could be crucial to the government's chances of lawmaking success.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:06 Channel4News
1:08
Channel4News: 

He talks of the importance of not giving the terrorists the oxygen of publicity - an old-school Margaret Thatcher catchphrase.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:08 Channel4News
1:10
Channel4News: 
Ruth Kelly looks completely miserable - perhaps because she's wearing almost exactly the same white jacket as Jacqui Smith
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:10 Channel4News
1:11
Channel4News: 
Tony McNulty looks increasingly restless on the bench behind Jacqui Smith (back on her feet again) - is he missing the limelight after his seemingly constant round of recent media interviews?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:11 Channel4News
1:14
Channel4News: 
First appearance from shadow home secretary David Davis. He popped up on the GMTV sofa and Today's 8.10am interview this morning to rubbish the 42 plans. It's a far cry from the olde days, when he was seen  as right-wing compared to David "Dave" Cameron, let alone the Labour party.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:14 Channel4News
1:16
Channel4News: 
Mike Richards gets in touch with a question: "If this law is passed, what is the point of the Home Secretary initiating a Commons discussion? Surely the details of the case cannot be discussed by Parliamentarians without prejudicing any possible trial; so Members of the Commons will not have the facts to hand to determine whether the detention is legal. It will come down to a case of 'Do you trust the judgement of the Home Secretary?' which will surely degenerate into party politics - opposition MPs will vote against the government line, loyal MPs will vote in favour."
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:16 Channel4News
1:16
[Comment From Mike RichardsMike Richards: ] 
Sorry (resending, I accidentally hit Enter) If this law is passed, what is the point of the Home Secretary initiating a Commons discussion? Surely the details of the case cannot be discussed by Parliamentarians without prejudicing any possible trial; so Members of the Commons will not have the facts to hand to determine whether the detention is legal. It will come down to a case of 'Do you trust the judgement of the Home Secretary?' which will surely degenerate into party politics - opposition MPs will vote against the government line, loyal MPs will vote in favour. It is a dangerous introduction of politics into the legal system. Is the government proposing each vote will be a matter of conscience, or will they be whipped? What happens if the government loses a vote - as well as having to release the detainee, surely it immediately raises questions over the judgement of the Home Secretary and will force them to resign. Some answers would be useful, but good luck in extracting them from the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:16 Mike Richards
1:16
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
For those catching up, here's the Channel 4 News at Noon report on 42-day:
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:16 Channel4News
1:17
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
For those of you catching up, 42-day report from today's Channel 4 News at Noon
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:17 Channel4News
1:20
Channel4News: 
Out come the numbers from the home sec. It's a typically Brownist trick - baffle them with stats. And the most common figures to strike fear into terrorist-hating hearts are:  the  2000 individuals who are being monitored, 200 networks and 30 active plots.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:20 Channel4News
1:21
Channel4News: 
These stats have been around since  a July 2007 Home Office paper, which said the figure was the highest it has been, and a "new and sustained level of activity" rather than a spike.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:21 Channel4News
1:23
Channel4News: 
These aren't exactly official statistics - unfortunately (or perhaps that should be fortunately, very fortunately), we just have to take the government's word for it.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:23 Channel4News
1:24
Channel4News: 

A bit of a spat's breaking out about what the security services said, or didn't say.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:24 Channel4News
1:26
Channel4News: 
Top spook Johnathan Evans put out a statement on Monday setting out MI5's position as being firmly on the fence.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:26 Channel4News
1:28
Channel4News: 

GOSSIP: The smart money sees the government winning this one with the support of the Democratic Unionist Party. But apparently the Tories are expecting to lose this too. We've been told that David Cameron is at a private function from 6:30 onwards. That means that if the government loses the first vote, he would miss the second vote, which we're expecting at 6:40.

Clearly the Tories' aren't preparing for victory...

Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:28 Channel4News
1:28
Channel4News: 
A rousing call from David Davis to defend the liberties we have had for centuries!
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:28 Channel4News
1:29
Channel4News: 
Liberty is in our blood! The common strand that binds us together! Hands on your hearts, now.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:29 Channel4News
1:33
Channel4News: 
Davis refers to evidence given by former counter-terrorism chief Peter Clarke, who said that police officers had had to sleep at the office to bring charges under the old 14-day terror limit.   This is preferable, Davis reckons, to an innocent person being detained for six weeks.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:33 Channel4News
1:35
Channel4News: 
Impressive speech from Davis - shredding the case for the government bit by bit
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:35 Channel4News
1:38
Channel4News: 
Davis: Half the suspects cases Stephens claimed were questioned for nearly 28 days (the current limit) turned out to be innocent. The longer you lock people up for, the more likely they are to be found to be innocent in the end.  
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:38 Channel4News
1:41
Channel4News: 
Jacqui Smith looks a little worried under Davis's assault. He says that in two cases where people were charged after 28 days detention, the cops already had all their evidence after 12 days.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:41 Channel4News
1:44
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
Here's Gordon Brown and David Cameron's exchange on detention without charge in PMQs earlier this afternoon
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:44 Channel4News
1:45
Channel4News: 
Barry Gardiner wants to know - if they had the evidence so soon, why did they wait another 16 days to charge them?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:45 Channel4News
1:47
Channel4News: 
It's a case of priorities, says Davis - the people under the most serious charges were charged after 21 days. The least strong cases will wait the longest - so the people who spend longest awaiting charge are the most likely to be innocent.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:47 Channel4News
1:49
Channel4News: 
A clarification to the note about David Cameron's evening plans. He would no doubt be able to make the vote - but he doesn't seem to be planning a victory tour of the TV studios.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:49 Channel4News
1:53
Channel4News: 
Rob Marris of Wolverhampton SW makes an interesting point. Davis cloaks himself in the language of ancient civil liberties, habeas corpus, etc - but advocates all kinds of things that transgress those liberties - the Civil Contingencies Act, the use of intercept evidence, charging with a lesser offence and continuing to question.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:53 Channel4News
1:58
Channel4News: 

Shameless plug alert:  if anyone's after a quick 42-day detention refresher, our five-minute guide is here.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:58 Channel4News
1:59
Channel4News: 
Striking contrast between David Davis and Jacqui Smith. He looks relaxed, debonair, impressively on top of his material. She looks like she hasn't slept for three weeks. Opposition is much easier than government, especially when your opponent is less popular than Iain Duncan Smith.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 1:59 Channel4News
2:00
Channel4News: 
A reader writes:
"How come Stephen Pound and Grant Shaps have time to sit on sky news debating the historic threat to our freedom/Magna Carta etc while the historic debate is ongoing in the House of Commons - the bastion of our democracy?"

Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:00 Channel4News
2:03
Channel4News: 
Diane Abbott speaks up for the muslim constituents of Hackney South. If 42 days goes on the statute book, they fear that extended detention will become 'routinised'
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:03 Channel4News
2:04
Channel4News: 
DD describes the experience of being dragged from your bed at dawn and locked up for 1000 hours, not knowing how your children feel, what's happened to your job. He's finished - a monster oration.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:04 Channel4News
2:05
Channel4News: 

Keith Vaz, chair of the home affairs select committee, rises from the Labour benches - he has a hard act to follow.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:05 Channel4News
2:05
Channel4News: 
Keith Vazzzzzzzzzzzzz.... Sorry, did I just type that? Sorry, can't delete it. Like Tony Blair, CoverItLive has no reverse gear
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:05 Channel4News
2:06
Channel4News: 
Diane Abbott is sending a text message...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:06 Channel4News
2:07
Channel4News: 
Zzzz  is showing off - sorry, enlightening the noble house - about the committee's mammoth counter-terrorism enquiry.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:07 Channel4News
2:10
Channel4News: 

We're back to the question of evidence, schmevidence - still no concrete evidence that a longer detention limit is needed, but  does that mean it can be ruled out in future?

Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:10 Channel4News
2:12
Channel4News: 
Vaz bigs up the amount of parliamentary consideration that's been given to the bill - markedly different from the issue of police pay, he notes.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:12 Channel4News
2:12
Channel4News: 
From the Newsroom: Jon Snow just stepped back in to discover that the programme editor is dispatching him to Westminster to present the top of the show from outside Parliament...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:12 Channel4News
2:14
Channel4News: 
Keith Vaz rejects the suggestion that he was offered a knighthood in exchange for his support of the bill. He laughs as if to say 'what a ridiculous suggestion'. So humble...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:14 Channel4News
2:16
Channel4News: 
"There's controversy in this house about this issue," says Vaz (42 days, that is, not his knighthood).    
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:16 Channel4News
2:19
Channel4News: 
Former lawyer Vaz - whose voice suggests anything but controversy - is talking around the legalese with the shadow attorney general. We are trying to stay awake, honest.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:19 Channel4News
2:24
Channel4News: 
Iain Dale rates today's PMQs as Gordon's best performance so far. Damning with faint praise? Not at all - he gives Brown and Cameron both 9/10.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:24 Channel4News
2:28
Channel4News: 
Vaz has been on his feet for 21 minutes, he says. Feels like at least 42 days...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:28 Channel4News
2:34
Channel4News: 

Keith Vaz says that the home affairs select committee did meet the head of M15. He can't discuss in detail what he said, but terrorist threats "are real, and they are growing".

Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:34 Channel4News
2:36
Channel4News: 
Chris Huhne takes to his feet. He's wearing a tie so horrible it would even make Jon Snow queasy.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:36 Channel4News
2:38
Channel4News: 
NEWSROOM LATEST: Jon Snow, 10 producers, editors, and "anyone else you can think of" will soon be dispatched to Westminster for the 7pm show. 42-day rebel MP David Winnick is among those on the guestlist - more names will follow as the afternoon progresses...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:38 Channel4News
2:39
[Image]chris_huhne_tie.jpg  View
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:39 
2:42
Channel4News: 
Nick Clegg manages to suppress a yawn. But only just.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:42 Channel4News
2:44
Channel4News: 
Chris Huhne is revisiting many of the same arguments that David Davis outlined earlier. Of the three people detained for 28 days, the evidence that was used to charge them was available in four days in one case and 12 in the other.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:44 Channel4News
2:46
Channel4News: 
Huhne makes the comparison with other common-law countries. Canada has 24 hour detention without charge,  even  George Bush's  US has 48 hours, and Australia has twelve days.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:46 Channel4News
2:47
Channel4News: 
First Kafka reference of the day. Can't be long before George Orwell enters the debate. Or Douglas Adams.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:47 Channel4News
2:49
Channel4News: 
Clegg gazes wistfully up at Huhne - or is he just hoping to be beamed up out of the room?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:49 Channel4News
2:50
Channel4News: 
Huhne cuts to the chase: "Ministers are using this simple number as a proxy to persuade the public that they are tough on terror." There you have it - Five hours of debate summed up in a text message.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:50 Channel4News
2:53
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
VIDEO RECAP: watch Jacqui Smith make her case
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:53 Channel4News
2:55
Channel4News: 

Huhne becoming increasingly passionate. He's making quite a rousing case in defence of the liberal position. But anyone who follows Keith Vaz would probably seem passionate and rousing.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:55 Channel4News
2:57
Channel4News: 

Huhhe draws comparisons with  internment  under  the IRA - something that can be pretty much guaranteed to  rile the  pro-camp.  David Blunkett wrote to The Times yesterday, for examlpe,  arguing  that the degree of risk today is of a much greater magnitude than it was under the IRA.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:57 Channel4News
2:59
Channel4News: 
Huhne is attacking the 'safeguards' added by Government. Extending the maximum period of detention requires a 'grave terrorist threat' - but that could be as far away as Tonga, he says.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 2:59 Channel4News
3:03
Channel4News: 
The Labour benches are looking pretty depleted - it's mostly an  opposition audience hearing  Huhne argue that our free state must not become as liberty-hampered as the terrorists we are fighting.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:03 Channel4News
3:03
Channel4News: 
Andrew Dismore - sponsor of the rebel amendment - is speaking. He received hate mail and death threats.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:03 Channel4News
3:05
Channel4News: 
He chairs the joint committe on human rights  - a committee of MPs and Lords which has produced 11 reports on the counter-terror bill.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:05 Channel4News
3:07
Channel4News: 
Sorry, joint committee -   typing takes an occasional  back seat when civil liberties are at stake. At least, that's C4N's excuse.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:07 Channel4News
3:08
Channel4News: 
Dismore: the 28-day power has not been used for a year.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:08 Channel4News
3:12
Channel4News: 

Dismore's picking over the different possible definitiions of a "grave, exceptional terrorist threat" - that all-important buzzword under which the 42-day powers should only be invoked.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:12 Channel4News
3:13
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
VIDEO RECAP: not to obssess on Chris Huhne's tie when there are bigger issues at stake, but here's the Lib Dem front bencher wearing it earlier. Also features good use of the phrase 'pork barrel politics'
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:13 Channel4News
3:13
Channel4News: 
Dismore is discussing the hypothetical scenario of '2 or three' nine-elevens. Can't help wondering if he watched the rerun of Team America: World Police on Channel 4 at the weekend:
"We're talking 9-11 times 100"
"What? Surely you can't mean..."
"That's right. We're talking 91 thousand, one hundred."
Personally, I think 2,733 is quite bad enough.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:13 Channel4News
3:20
Channel4News: 
Dismore whips his way through his amendments - one of which would involve gaining the approval of various committee chairs. He is unlikely still to be a committee chair the way he's going, he jokes.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:20 Channel4News
3:21
Channel4News: 
Victoria from Manchester writes to say she can't see Chris Huhne's tie, and wants someone to describe it. We respectfully decline. Take it from me, Victoria, you're better off living in ignorance.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:21 Channel4News
3:24
Channel4News: 
The legal arguments are getting pretty subtle now. Dismore is talking about the benefits of 'threshold charging' versus the 'full code test'. It's beginning to sound like an IT conference.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:24 Channel4News
3:26
Channel4News: 
There is a package of alternatives, proposed by the JCHR, says Dismore.  There'd be one set of practice for "the big ones, the 9/11s", and another for all the other terrorist incidents. Listening to this list of possible Armageddons being  reeled off so casually, we can't help but think sitting and watching  a debate seems rather foolhardy. Anyone care to join us in the bunker?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:26 Channel4News
3:30
Channel4News: 

If Dismore ever competes on Radio 4's Just A Minute, I recommend you back him heavily. He's been speaking for what feels like two hours without hesitation, and no-one has managed to interrupt him. He may well have been repeating himself but I have to say I didn't manage to concentrate hard enough to spot it. But he's just uttered the magic word '...finally..."

Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:30 Channel4News
3:30
Do you support raising the detention limit from 28 days to 42 days in exceptional circumstances?
Yes
 ( 16% )
No
 ( 83% )
Don't Know
 ( 1% )

Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:30 
3:31
Channel4News: 
Michael Mates: Best political eyebrows since Dennis Healey?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:31 Channel4News
3:31
Channel4News: 
Michael Lord, the deputy speaker, asks MPs to keep their remarks as brief as possible. We suspect all but Dismore salute him.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:31 Channel4News
3:39
Channel4News: 
Respect to Michael Mates (a very well-spoken, old fashioned Tory MP) for using the word 'slammer'. Unfortunately he didn't precede it with the word 'tequila'.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:39 Channel4News
3:43
Channel4News: 
Something I've never seen in the mother of parliaments before:  An MP sitting  behind the current speaker Dari Taylor has lined up a very impressive range of multi-coloured plastic folders, poking out above the green leather bench. Not sure why. Maybe it's to taunt Caroline Flint about her transparent folder gaffe last month. Or maybe it's a screen to hide his seat from the cheif whip. In fact he's just sneaked out - so it's probably the latter answer.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:43 Channel4News
3:43
[Image]mates_vs_healey.jpg  View
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:43 
3:44
Channel4News: 
Labour's Dari Taylor kicks off by quoting from Matthew D'Ancona's column in the Sunday Telegraph  - not necessarily the first witness we would have expected to hear called in the Commons, but it makes a change from talk of amendments and legalising, at least.  
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:44 Channel4News
3:45
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
VIDEO RECAP: watch Jacqui Smith make her case
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:45 Channel4News
3:45
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
VIDEO RECAP: David Davis makes his case.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:45 Channel4News
3:45
Channel4News: 

Calls for a pen-portrait of the Huhne tie are becoming overwhelming. In fact someone has just accused us of 'tantielising' them. So here it is - it's a collection of squares, each  about an inch across, in different shades of blue, all of which somehow clash with each other. It's actually a whole lot worse than it sounds.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:45 Channel4News
3:47
Channel4News: 
Folder update: some lines of text in the nearest of the pages can just be glimpsed, but in the absence of a Flint-tripping super lens, we'll just have to guess what they say. Tie guidelines, maybe?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:47 Channel4News
3:48
Channel4News: 
Dari Taylor attempts a joke. Terrorists, she says,  are talking in a variety of Afghan dialects including one called 'Dari'. Geddit!?!!? The house collapses in hysterical silence. I thought most terrorists spoke Lembit, anyway.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:48 Channel4News
3:50
Channel4News: 
Folder man is back. Still can't see who he is though.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:50 Channel4News
3:51
Channel4News: 

He has a purple tie. What more do you need to know?

Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:51 Channel4News
3:51
Channel4News: 

No, he's off again.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:51 Channel4News
3:54
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
VIDEO UPDATE: debate tough going? hard to concentrate? There's only one thing to do - the old 'have I got any messages' routine...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:54 Channel4News
3:56
Channel4News: 

Terrorist dialect Taylor appears to be talking about an almost entirely different bill to the oppostion speakers - those rousing Braveheart-style calls to defend our freedom are gone.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:56 Channel4News
3:57
Channel4News: 

Diane Abbott intervenes again, addressing the harm this bill might do to community relations in her east London constituency. Speaking of East London - where is George Galloway, MP for Bethnal Green and Bow? Come on George! The silence is deafening!

Wednesday June 11, 2008 3:57 Channel4News
4:00
Channel4News: 
After four sets of interruptions, Taylor sits down... and we're back to the opposition.  It's  Elfyn Llwyd, Plaid Cymru's leader in Westminster, summoning up an Amnesty report at the start of his speech.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:00 Channel4News
4:04
Channel4News: 

Elfyn Llwyd is attacking the bill in his mellifluous Welsh voice, supported by a purple striped tie which perfectly balances the smart with the zany. The member behind him has his feet up on the bench. A grevious insult in some countries.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:04 Channel4News
4:06
Channel4News: 
The four o'clock mark ticks by. Less than two hours to go. WOOOO!!!!!!
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:06 Channel4News
4:08
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
VIDEO RECAP - just a reminder on the maths tonight. What it would take to defeat the government.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:08 Channel4News
4:09
Channel4News: 

"Does this debate seriously go on until eight?" asks Smurflover. In the cut and thrust world of politics, it's hard to be sure , but we're expecting votes around 6pm. We'll be covering the action right up until the lawmaking dust settles  - and into our 7pm show, where the 42-day issue is set for some serious screen time and top-flight guests.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:09 Channel4News
4:11
Channel4News: 
One of George Galloway's constituents asks two questions. One, where is George Galloway? And two, will this debate actually sway how anyone votes? Both good questions, but the second one is easier to answer. The debate is unlikely to influence most MPs, since they are not taking part in it and probably not even listening. But there is a chance that the comments could swing the vote one way or the other. The result probably hangs in the hands of some 30 or so Labour waverers, who are likely to defy the party whip and vote against the bill. So if  enough  of them  are convinced one way or the other, the bill will stand or fall accordingly.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:11 Channel4News
4:13
Channel4News: 
Who cares where George Galloway is? He doesn't wear a tie these days anyway. John Redwood, meanwhile is looking a million dollars: tanned, hunky and sporting a piece of pink floral neckwear which is nothing less than exquisite.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:13 Channel4News
4:18
Channel4News: 

Llwyd sits down, sadly, before getting bogged down in the issue of the bill's compatibility (or lack of it) with human rights. He's replaced by Labour's Gordon Marsden, who sports a vortex-like three-shade tie, shirt and suit combination.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:18 Channel4News
4:20
Channel4News: 
JARGON ALERT: We've had "mission creep", "judicial creep", "oxygen of publicity" and "separation of powers"  in the space of 30 seconds.  It's hard not to get hypnotised.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:20 Channel4News
4:22
Channel4News: 

Gordon Marsden delivers a stirring oration oration on the importance reintroducing public floggings, keel hauling and the birch. Only kidding - I was making a cup of tea while he was talking, so I have no idea what he said. But since the front benchers sat down, this debate has been producing rather more heat than light. The little they say that is new is generally just repeating what has been said before.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:22 Channel4News
4:24
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
Here's Gordon Brown and David Cameron's exchange on detention without charge in PMQs earlier this afternoon
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:24 Channel4News
4:24
Channel4News: 
"When we turn our back on the best part of a thousand years of tried and test process, a process which has been the basis for legal systems throughout the developed world, have we not rather lost our perspective on what freedom means and how significant the threat is? Any MP who votes for this should be ashamed of themselves." - That's from a reader, Andrew Findlay.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:24 Channel4News
4:25
Channel4News: 
Readers - given that sixty per cent of you are in favour of this bill (so a poll in the Times tells us)  - does anyone want to speak up and say they think it's a good idea?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:25 Channel4News
4:28
Channel4News: 

Ming Campbell is in the House! And we mean that in an elder statesman, restoring some dignity kind of way, not an Ali G in Da House-styleee.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:28 Channel4News
4:29
Channel4News: 
I need hardly tell you,  Ming is a model of sartorial elegance. But he's copping the  hip new  skinny tie trend, with a slim  pink number barely wider than a bootlace.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:29 Channel4News
4:31
Channel4News: 
Campbell's making a stirring speech - the concessions, he says, are "political boilerplate", leaving too much to the discretion of the home secretary.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:31 Channel4News
4:31
Channel4News: 
What does Sir Menzies actually say, you ask? He calls on parliament to rise above the trivia of expenses fraud for pre-paid envelopes and do their duty to hold the government to account. Needless to say, that means voting against the bill.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:31 Channel4News
4:32
Channel4News: 
MPs behind him sit with arms firmly crossed. They're nodding in stoney-faced agreement.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:32 Channel4News
4:38
Channel4News: 
In answer to Bob, here's one of the polls showing 69 per cent support for the bill. Always be suspicious of polls on such complex questions as this, the result very much depends on how you phrase the question. If you ask "Do you think suspected terrorists should be banged up for an extra two weeks" you'll get one answer; if you ask "Do you want to stomp on  the  sacred  liberties handed down by our forefathers by stomping on the centuries old tradition of Habeas Corpus" you would get a very different result.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:38 Channel4News
4:39
Channel4News: 

Peter Edwards gets in touch - an ex-police officer, and so a reader    that we suspect may step up to the official ACPO line of support for extended detention. But no: "there is more than sufficient legislation to hold a suspect without further restriction on liberty," he tells us.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:39 Channel4News
4:39
Channel4News: 
Diane Abbott - "I ony voted for 28 days under duress". She hoped it would finish the issue for this parliament, she says. Does the word 'naive' spring to mind?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:39 Channel4News
4:42
Channel4News: 

Abbott's working herself up into a frenzy over the risks to community cohesion. We shouldn't play with our civil liberties in order to get ahead in opinion polls, she fingerwags at MPs.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:42 Channel4News
4:42
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
VIDEO: those behind the scenes deals in full
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:42 Channel4News
4:42
Channel4News: 
Diane Abbott : "This is purest politics. This is about the polls. This is about positioning". Quotes the most senior muslim in the Met, saying (privately) that the short-term operational advantage is not worth the risk to community cohesion.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:42 Channel4News
4:44
Channel4News: 
No readers want to argue for 42 days? Come on, don't be shy. You can be anonymous if you want. There are at least 9 per cent of you who support it. Otherwise you will confirm the worst prejudices about the viewers of Channel 4 News...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:44 Channel4News
4:47
Channel4News: 
Any rebel backbencher with a cause can get what they want, Abbott shrieks, echoing  the BBC's Nick Robinson  on Today this morning (not that he was shrieking).  Governorships of Bermuda have been bandied about, she suggests. We couldn't possibly commment.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:47 Channel4News
4:49
Channel4News: 

"The house looks rather empy can this debate actualy effect the end result? Or is it just going through the motions?" asks Jim. The house is rather thinly attended, it's true. But it's a close vote, so it could go either way.
Will it make any difference? Well, as one of the speakers pointed out earlier, the bill would have to get through the Lords and the European Courts first, and that will be extremely tough. And as most of the speakers have said - the police would have to find a case where 42 days was actually necessary to question a suspect - which they have never found so far. So it is probably fair to say that this debate is more about theatre than principle.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:49 Channel4News
4:50
Channel4News: 

Diane Abbott is not shreiking - she's making a rather good speech  - her passion, and her oratorical skills - is quite a contrast to some of the more lawyerly offerings of other MPs. David Davies calls it one of the best speeches he has ever heard in the house.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:50 Channel4News
4:50
Channel4News: 

The bill tackles the wrong people, according to Abbott:  we are not going to be detaining the Saudi paymasters of terror. Like internment, it will scoop up the disadvantaged flotsam and jetsam - what does  she say to the mothers of her contituents, if they come to her because their son has been locked up for five weeks without charge?

Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:50 Channel4News
4:52
Channel4News: 
Reader Pete Darby has a go. "Honestly, I'm trying to frame a devil's advocate argument for 42 days, but I can't. It's being promoted as "We haven't even needed 28 days yet, but who knows?" What next? "We haven't yet needed to torture the children of suspected terrorists, but who knows?"
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:52 Channel4News
4:54
Channel4News: 
David Davies, in a spotted tie, says he trusted Tony Blair when Blair said "trust me". Now, he is disillusioned with minsters all round.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:54 Channel4News
4:55
Channel4News: 
He's a serving police officer, apparently. "if you can't find enough evidence in 28 days to charge someone, then any prosecution is likely to be unsafe." With early release, he says, 42 days is equivalent of a three-month prison sentence.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:55 Channel4News
4:57
Channel4News: 

The compensation plan doesn't pass the Davies muster, either. his take on the government's position: we arrest you at    5am, probably at gunpoint, and it's okay now, here's some money?

Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:57 Channel4News
4:57
Channel4News: 
Davies is speaking with considerable passion, too - things are coming back to life after the post-lunch lull. Could we have some fireworks before the vote as the chamber fills up? Let's hope so.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:57 Channel4News
4:59
Channel4News: 
He ends with a quick spot of history: King John had to be brought to book by the barons of the lords when Magna Carta was brought in. The barons of the chamber should feel duly called to action.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 4:59 Channel4News
5:00
Channel4News: 
To correct an omission - I was so carried away by listening to what Diane Abbott was actually saying that I quite forgot to comment on her neckwear choices. For the record, it's a wooden necklace so chunky it looks like it weighs about two kilos. Did I spot an envious glance from Jon Snow?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:00 Channel4News
5:02
Channel4News: 
One hour to go before the vote... the house is still pretty empty.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:02 Channel4News
5:03
Channel4News: 
Newsroom Latest:

Lord Carlisle
lined up as a guest tonight.

Also live disco (trisco, anyone?)  with David Winnick (Lab), Nigel Dodds (DUP), and Khalid Mahmood (Lab). That at least is what's in the running order right now. Subject to change...

Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:03 Channel4News
5:04
Channel4News: 
A great big stat-spew from Labour's Martin Salter, who's telling us how much more evidence there is to rake over in terrorist cases these days.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:04 Channel4News
5:04
Channel4News: 
To those unfamiliar with TV jargon - we are not planning to ask David Winnick and Nigel Dodds to dance with each other. 'Disco' is short for discussion.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:04 Channel4News
5:05
Channel4News: 
BINGO! Salter reels out the "at least 2,000 terrorist suspects, 200 networks or cells and 30 active plots" stat set we discussed earlier. Despite the 60s-rebel haircut, he's toeing the government line,
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:05 Channel4News
5:07
Channel4News: 

Martin Salter's accent is oddly similar to the legendary left-wing singer-songwriter Billy Bragg's - which makes it rather odd to hear him talking up a controversial government bill.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:07 Channel4News
5:08
Channel4News: 
Reader Paul has a dazzling idea to revitalise British democracy: "In future please get your guests to have a disco dance off to determine what we should think about political issues. 9 times out of 10 it would make as much sense." This is an important issue, Paul. Our lives are at stake, if only hypothetically. So please be serious.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:08 Channel4News
5:10
Channel4News: 
Martin Salter says the bill is "Strasbourg-compliant".  Wasn't that the name of Billy Bragg album? Either way, he think's it would at least survive that legal hurdle - if it ever makes it out of the Lords.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:10 Channel4News
5:11
Channel4News: 
Reader Paul  points out that we're misrepresenting him by only posting his silly comments and then attacking him for lack of seriousness. We're so busted. It's because I'm angling for a job as a political spin doctor, Paul...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:11 Channel4News
5:13
Channel4News: 
WESTMINSTER LATEST - comments just in from our  political correspondent Cathy Newman:
"Hanging about in Westminster today, I've come to the conclusion there are two sorts of ministers: the panickers and the Pollyannas. The panickers are very gloomy about tonight's vote - whatever the result. One told me that even if the government scrapes through, that just allows Gordon Brown to limp along until the summer holidays when Labour MPs can jet off to Tuscany and forget the nightmare of the last few months. Then, this minister said, he's going to have to have "the conference of all conferences" in the Autumn - with an 'Obama-like speech' (can you imagine Brown doing THAT?!) - to survive. And if the government loses tonight, the outlook from the panickers is pretty dire: the whole question of whether Brown needs to be replaced as leader is immediately on everyone's lips."
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:13 Channel4News
5:16
Channel4News: 
Martin Salter sums up the government's case like this. "One may get through in the future, and I don't want the fingerprints of this house on a bill which lets a miscreant out on the streets to commit a major atrocity." Something like that, anyway - my shorthand gave out half-way through the quote. John Baron speaks next, and is withering.  "I  won't follow the custom and say it was a pleasure listening to that speech, because there were so many things wrong with it that it wasn't worthy of it."  Or something like that - once again, the old shorthand is cracking up.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:16 Channel4News
5:18
Channel4News: 
MORE FROM CATHY NEWMAN: "But the Pollyannas take a very different view. They argue that no matter what happens tonight, Gordon Brown has done the right thing. And that's because (as a poll in today's Daily Telegraph shows) the public overwhelmingly backs the prime minister on 42 days.
"Let's face it, overwhelming public support is something of a novelty to Brown these days. The Pollyannas point out that Tony Blair lost the vote on whether to detain people for 90 days without charge, and he wasn't immediately forced out of office."
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:18 Channel4News
5:19
Channel4News: 
John Baron's gray tie nods towards the skinny new-wave punk aesthetic without fully embracing it. The word 'Majoresque' seems appropriate.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:19 Channel4News
5:19
Channel4News: 
CATHY NEWMAN CONCLUDES: "I suspect the Pollyannas and panickers are both half-right. If Brown loses tonight, that will undoubtedly be a bitter blow to his already weakened authority. Leadership speculation is bound to follow - in spades.
"But the speculation goes nowhere unless the public warms to an alternative Labour leader. And at the moment there's no sign voters want David Miliband in number 10. So talk of changing leaders just makes Labour look divided, and increases the chances that David Cameron will stride up Downing Street in two years' time."
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:19 Channel4News
5:20
Channel4News: 
Reader Mike Richards,   who seems to have been reading this blog all afternoon, says: "What  I like about the logic of Martin Salter's speech is that the number 42 can be dropped out and a higher number substituted. So the next time the government chooses to up the limit (and does anyone think they won't try again in the future?), he can just dust off the pages and crayon in a new number."
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:20 Channel4News
5:22
Channel4News: 
The 'Yes' vote on our web poll is ticking up slightly - up from 9% to 11%. Come on, Yes voters! Make yourselves heard!
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:22 Channel4News
5:22
Channel4News: 
Expect to hear more from Cathy N, and our political editor Gary Gibbon, on tonight's show from 7pm.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:22 Channel4News
5:24
Channel4News: 
Patrick Mercer is playing with his glasses. Dominic Greive is staring vacantly heavenwards. I think John Baron is losing his audience... Oh hang on, he's finished now.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:24 Channel4News
5:27
Channel4News: 
Mark Durkan is on his feet now. Ulster MPs are well represented in the house today, and the DUP may well save the day for Brown. Durkan asks - what happens if there's a bomb during election campaign, if Parliament is meant to have the final say on extended detentions? The Madrid bomb happened during an election campaign, he says.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:27 Channel4News
5:28
Channel4News: 
Jon Snow in tonight's Snowmail  writes:

"Well, tonight is a push-me, pull-me night when politics are seriously in play and the result could go any which way - in theory.

In practice I think everybody suspects that the government knows it is home and dry on the contentious issue of detaining terror suspects for 42 days without trial."
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:28 Channel4News
5:30
Channel4News: 
Durkan raises the UK's history of false confessions in terrorist cases. eg the Guildford four. Would the 42 day measures make this more likely?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:30 Channel4News
5:32
Channel4News: 
"Do not feed what you want to fight, and do not destroy what you want to defend". Good speech from Durkan. Tough to follow three hours of other people more or less the same thing.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:32 Channel4News
5:32
Channel4News: 

David Heath says he was in New York on 9/11 and in Aldgate on 7/7. Widespread and slightly inappropriate laughter. DO NOT TAKE A PLANE WITH THIS MAN!

Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:32 Channel4News
5:34
[Image]jon_snow_wooden_tie.jpg  View
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:34 
5:35
Channel4News: 
A reader wonders what Jon Snow would look like in a wooden tie. As you'd expect, Jon Snow already has one - click the link above if you seriously want to see it.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:35 Channel4News
5:37
Channel4News: 

Reader Jim: "I think Parliment do have a certain amount of amnesia when it comes to the troubles. I really dont see the difference between the Real / Continuation IRA or Al-Quida, their methods may have be different, but the end result is the same."

Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:37 Channel4News
5:38
Channel4News: 

The Labour troops are gathering around Jacqui Smith on the frontbench. A few shots of her furiously shuffling through papers - unlike David Daives, who earlier could be spotted discarding pages with a rhetorical flourish as he gave his passionate speech.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:38 Channel4News
5:38
Channel4News: 
Frank Cook speaking now. He's wearing a very fetching ice-cream suit and a blue tie that looks as if it's been cut from a beach towel.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:38 Channel4News
5:41
Channel4News: 
He's not going to go into the niceities of the legal terms, he tells us. We know the House is the seat of lawmaking and all, but the child in us can't help but be pleased we're to be spared another Dismore-esque lecture.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:41 Channel4News
5:41
Channel4News: 
A real supporter has been found  - they sent a text message to Frank Cook. Don't vote against the government, it said - you'll put the three marginals on Teesside at risk. "Marginals shouldn't have anything to do with it," says Cook - it's a matter of principle.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:41 Channel4News
5:42
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
VIDEO RECAP: Ming Campbell makes his case
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:42 Channel4News
5:43
Channel4News: 
Less than 20 minutes to go. Even the dapper Mr Cook hasn't managed to fill the house, which is still pretty empty. We expect mass influx shortly.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:43 Channel4News
5:45
Channel4News: 
Cook - a Labour rebel, denies that he's trying to bring down the government.  The whips are smiling, he says. Could their be a government victory on the cards?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:45 Channel4News
5:45
Channel4News: 

More from Jon Snow's Snowmail:

"So tonight I'll be down on Abingdon Green, the strip of grass across the road from parliament, talking to the great and the good, the defeated and the victorious, about the implications of tonight's vote. "
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:45 Channel4News
5:46
Channel4News: 

25 years ago, Cook tells us, he rejected the use of the term "rrrrright" - much in the way overly-PC councils are accused of banning black bags for semantic reasons, he did not want to be associated with "right wingers" when he was correct.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:46 Channel4News
5:48
Channel4News: 
Bill Cash is back on his feet - making (by our count) his third set of references to habeas corpus.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:48 Channel4News
5:49
Channel4News: 
Bill Cash mentions political football.  Since he brought it up -  Portugal - Czech Republic is 1 - 1 going into half time. Neck and neck - much like this debate.  
(Czech Republic is our tip to 'do a Greece' and take the title.)
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:49 Channel4News
5:50
Channel4News: 
The clock is ticking... and after five hours of debate, Jacqui Smith is back on her feet.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:50 Channel4News
5:51
Channel4News: 
No cabinet ministers in the 'donut' of MPs around Jacqui Smith who are visible on telly. Are they perhaps not keen to be visibly associated with this?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:51 Channel4News
5:52
Channel4News: 
A bright yellow tie is prominent behind her, however - a (not so secret) signal to the Lib Dems?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:52 Channel4News
5:52
Channel4News: 
Jim again: "Smith represents the empty space at the centre of the donut? makes sense to me."
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:52 Channel4News
5:53
Channel4News: 
The home sec is talking soothing words about the need for community cohesion - something she says that all understand.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:53 Channel4News
5:55
Channel4News: 
Smith says that the line about detention for 28 days being unnecessary is a canard. Remember back to about 3pm - David Davis and Chris Huhne were saying that for the only two people who were detained for 28 days, they were charged after 4 days and 12 days. Smith says it's not the case. I'm confused.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:55 Channel4News
5:56
Channel4News: 
She challenges another point - people under detention will be told what the charges are, and should have access to their families.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:56 Channel4News
5:57
Channel4News: 
Dominic Grieve, the shadow attorney general, rebuts her firmly - David Davis spoke only the facts, that evidence had been available before the 28th day, not that there had been deliberate delaying tactics in bringing the charge. But no, says Smith - his comments suggested that some kind of shonky business had been at play.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:57 Channel4News
5:58
Channel4News: 
The house fills up rapidly. There's Caroline Flint in a fetching pink jacket. Jacqui Smith is mounting a spirited defence - she's now talking up the role of a parliamentary debate in approving an extended detention period.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 5:58 Channel4News
6:00
Channel4News: 
The British people place their trust in parliament to take the right decisions to protect them, she tells MPs firmly. The reverberations of these stern words are felt among those who like to pick over MP's neckwear, we assure you.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:00 Channel4News
6:00
Channel4News: 
"We cannot simply hope for the best; we must have plans in place to cope with the worst" - it hasn't happened yet, but we should have these powers in case it does. That's the government's case in a nutshell. They're voting now...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:00 Channel4News
6:01
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
VIDEO RECAP: watch Jacqui Smith make her case
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:01 Channel4News
6:01
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
VIDEO RECAP: David Davis makes his case.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:01 Channel4News
6:01
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
VIDEO RECAP: Ming Campbell makes his case
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:01 Channel4News
6:02
Channel4News: 
It's the vote on the crucial bill now  - the house rises and heads for the lobbies. Whew, that was quite a five and a half hours. There was some fascinating stuff in there if you listened from it, as well as a lot of garbage. Will it make a difference? We'll find out in a few minutes.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:02 Channel4News
6:04
Channel4News: 
Anyone care to make a prediction? We rather suspect the government will sneak away with this one, even though hardly anyone in the house would speak up in favour. But  to quote  Sir Alex Ferguson, it is squeaky bum time for Gordon Brown.  Given the debate we've had, it will probably be a 'tie' (Ho ho ho).
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:04 Channel4News
6:07
Channel4News: 

Quick reader poll update: the Yes vote to raise the detention limit to 42 days hovers stubbornly at just 11 per cent. 89 per cent of you do not support the government's case.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:07 Channel4News
6:10
Channel4News: 

Lock the doors! comes the cry. That means a result is imminent, not that MPs are about to be detained without charge.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:10 Channel4News
6:13
Channel4News: 

If you're a gambling man... the betting on  the Betfair  exchange gives the government's clause a 90 per cent chance of passing.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:13 Channel4News
6:15
Channel4News: 
There should be lots of interesting stories tomorrow about the inducements the government has had to offer to get this through. £200m to Ulster to bring round the DUP, according to the papers this morning. And the blogs are reporting far more scurrilous things which have allegedly been done to win round the Labour waverers.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:15 Channel4News
6:18
Channel4News: 
The House is reaching levels of PMQ-esque packedness (a highlight of the parliamentary week)... no, make that exceeded - the members have spilled from the seats to take up a fair amount of carpet-space.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:18 Channel4News
6:18
Channel4News: 
Order, order!
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:18 Channel4News
6:18
Channel4News: 
Here it comes!!!!!!
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:18 Channel4News
6:18
Channel4News: 
The government WINS!!!!
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:18 Channel4News
6:18
Channel4News: 
315 - 306
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:18 Channel4News
6:19
Channel4News: 
The ayes to the right - 315; the noes to the left - 306.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:19 Channel4News
6:19
Channel4News: 
A win by a mere nine votes, from a party with a working majority of 65.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:19 Channel4News
6:20
Channel4News: 
Michael Martin gives someone a ticking off - didn't spot who it was. That means that the DUP votes will almost certainly have carried it. Expect some nice new bridges and schools to appear in Ulster.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:20 Channel4News
6:21
Channel4News: 
We're hearing there were 37 Labour rebels in among the vote mathematics.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:21 Channel4News
6:22
Channel4News: 

By my calculations - and it's been a long day - that means that nineteen MPs didn't vote at all. (Excluding Sinn Fein and the speaker).

Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:22 Channel4News
6:25
Channel4News: 
There's another vote now - it's 'new schedule 1' to the counter terrorism bill. This is the bit that actually sets the 42 day limit; the last vote was to extend beyond 28 days.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:25 Channel4News
6:25
Channel4News: 
This one will most likely go the same way as the last.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:25 Channel4News
6:28
Channel4News: 
CALL FOR QUESTIONS
With just over half an hour before we go on air tonight, we're lining up  Jacqui Smith for a live. Got a question? Let us know. We'll put the best to her.  
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:28 Channel4News
6:28
Channel4News: 
Austin Mitchell just told Sky he wavered, but eventually voted for the Government 'To save Gordon for the Nation'.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:28 Channel4News
6:30
Channel4News: 

Labour rebel John Grogan says - it's the worst possible result, shows the strength of feeling against the principle of 42 day detention.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:30 Channel4News
6:32
Channel4News: 

Grogan's predicting a ping pong of the bill between the Commons and the Lords - today's vote will still have to face the Lords test to make it anywhere near the statute book.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:32 Channel4News
6:34
Channel4News: 
Clegg's turn now to face the Sky News camera. No evidence for the extension, he says - an argument we've heard expressed many, many times over the afternoon.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:34 Channel4News
6:35
Channel4News: 
Jim again: "With it being so narrow, how confident can Smith be that when it comes to the crunch, parliament will extend detention of an actual individual?"
Well, that's such a hypothetical situation that it's almost impossible to say. Assuming there is convincing evidence that a) someone was planning/had perpetrated something truly unspeakable and b) there was a convincing argument that the cops needed to detain them for six weeks, you might well expect parliament to vote for it. But that is a very big IF.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:35 Channel4News
6:35
Channel4News: 

Another division returns: 315 vote in favour of setting the limit at 42 days, some of the rebels can no longer be bothered - only 294 vote against.

Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:35 Channel4News
6:38
Channel4News: 

Finally - MPs vote on a third division (or should we call it League One nowadays?) This is for the whole bill, as amended. Pretty amazing if the government didn't win this one. I think the drama is more or less over now...

Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:38 Channel4News
6:39
Channel4News: 
News, though,  from our reader poll - the Yes vote has suddenly surged from 11 per cent to 14 per cent. So now the 42-day supporters are happy to show their hand...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:39 Channel4News
6:41
Channel4News: 
In the football - Portugal are 2-1 up now. So much for my predictions.  Stick to the politics, guys...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:41 Channel4News
6:48
[Comment From Channel4NewsChannel4News: ] 
VIDEO RECAP: the moment the vote came in
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:48 Channel4News
6:50
Channel4News: 
And the division on the bill comes back. 315 in favour, 78 against. The opposition has upped and left, the bill has passed, the government has won. Is this the start of Gordon's bounce back? Or a temporary stay of execution.
Iain Duncan Smith wistfully asks that he has heard  of an extra £1.2bn to be spent in Northern Ireland. The price, (he implies) of an  inducement to buy the votes of the DUP, which carried the day. Has the  speaker had notice of an emergency budget statement on its way?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:50 Channel4News
6:51
Channel4News: 
And finally, its GORGEOUS GEORGE! With a tie!!! (Grey-green) What have you got to say, George?
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:51 Channel4News
6:53
Channel4News: 
Latest from our guest booker - Dominic Grieve is now in the Disco.   For those who've just joined us that's disco as in discussion, not disco as in this type of thing
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:53 Channel4News
6:55
Channel4News: 
The government who have to rely on those traditional friends of liberty, the DUP, are unembarrassable, says George. Then he brings up the plight of the starving in Ethiopia and Somalia. He cuts a lonely figure on his own in the green benches. But his speech about warfare and starvation  on a massive scale rather sets today's shenanigans in  perspective.  
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:55 Channel4News
6:57
Channel4News: 

And as the vote-charged dust settles, who were the men and women of the chamber? Some eloquent points at the start from a debonair David Davis. An honourable mention for Andrew Dismore's worthy chewing over of the legal implications (who says we just care about ties?). A passionate cut-through the parliamentary posturing to the implications for those who may be wrongly charged from Labour's Diane Abbott. A statesmanlike performance from the Lib Dem's Ming Campbell.  Any we've missed?

Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:57 Channel4News
6:59
Channel4News: 
Of course, for those who do just care about ties, the Chris Huhne's clashing blues confection is memorable for all the wrong reasons. Frank Cook's beach towel affair brought a touch of summer into the chamber, and Diane Abbott (a double C4News big up for the Hackney MP!) sported wooden neckwear, allowing us to bring out a photo  of a wooden-tied Jon Snow. What more could you  want?  
Wednesday June 11, 2008 6:59 Channel4News
7:01
Channel4News: 
Well, the man himself live from Westminster perhaps - on Channel 4 now.
Wednesday June 11, 2008 7:01 Channel4News
7:15
Channel4News: 
CALL FOR QUESTIONS

Still time to get your questions to our studio and Abingdon Green guests...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 7:15 Channel4News
7:18
Channel4News: 
Lord Carlisle is in Part II, and there's a three-way discussion with Khalid Mahmood, Dominic Grieve and David Winnock. Scheduled for 19.34 but this is live telly so it may run later...

KEEP THE QUESTIONS COMING...
Wednesday June 11, 2008 7:18 Channel4News
7:21
Channel4News: 
Daniel Rees asks:

"Can somebody please ask a Government minister why they think that the threats to the security of UK citizens are so great that it requires 6 times the time to detain without charge that the US requires, and many more weeks than most other developed countries?

Are all of these Governments irresponsible in their attitude to their own citizens' security?"
Wednesday June 11, 2008 7:21 Channel4News
7:23
Channel4News: 
Another reader guest42 has another question for our (former) pot-smoking home sec
 
"Could you ask jaqui smith "when idealising and smoking at uni, did you ever see yourself subverting habeus corpus and formulating a quasi - court role for parliment?'"
Wednesday June 11, 2008 7:23 Channel4News
7:25
Channel4News: 
And Robert McGregor, referencing talk of  concessions and promises:

"Quite apart from the question of trying to balance security and civil liberties, there is now the further question of whether there are or should be any limits to political expediency.

How far can a government go to ensure that it wins a vote? "
Wednesday June 11, 2008 7:25 Channel4News
7:28
Channel4News: 

Luke asks:

"When it seems so clear to the majority of people that they disagree with extending this controversial measure, that Gordon Brown's popularity means he has to mimic his predecessor in demonstrating forcing through unpopular measures like the fox-hunting bill and the war in Iraq just to secure a place in history by being tough in the Commons."

But do most people oppose extending detention without trial. Sure our poll is pretty one sided. But compare it to the 69 per cent in favour of 42-days in today's Telegraph poll

Wednesday June 11, 2008 7:28 Channel4News
7:31
Channel4News: 
And Greig Mair makes a point a fair few of you have:

"How long before we are told that we need an even bigger extenstion??"
Wednesday June 11, 2008 7:31 Channel4News
7:40
Channel4News: 
From Peter Ross:

"I See, Your politics prevent you from publishing anything in support of stiffer security measures then!"

Not true Peter. We've been putting out the call for those willing to stand up to the extension. Honestly, in the 7 or so hours we've been blogging, pretty much nothing has come through.

Feel free to make the case. But do it quick. We're closing for business in the next 10 mins....
Wednesday June 11, 2008 7:40 Channel4News
7:44
Channel4News: 
Luke's done the honours (up to a point):

"I would also just submit I have no objections to extending the period for detention, but the problem with all the statistical rhetoric is that, without the appropriate context, it fails to convince many there is an urgent need for what is symbolically a very dodgy move."
Wednesday June 11, 2008 7:44 Channel4News
7:45
Channel4News: 
LAST ORDERS.

Any more for any more? Haven't you got homes to go to? And other stock phrases from the pub landlord's lexicon....
Wednesday June 11, 2008 7:45 Channel4News
7:47
Channel4News: 

And we're done...

Thanks for all your contributions. We'll do this again.

Final word goes to Pete Ross, who's delivered on his promise:

"AS I said earlier, the average person has nothing to fear from the supposedly draconian measures! Only those who do wrong or those who associate with them have something to worry about. For once, the government has listened to your average Joe."

 

Wednesday June 11, 2008 7:47 Channel4News
7:48



 
 
 
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