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Live chat with Amity Shlaes
 
2:24
Fred Barbash-Moderator -  Good afternoon. Amity Shlaes will be with us at 4 pm EDT. But if you'd like to submit questions in advance, you can so so here. Remember to use a name--not a handle or "guest."

2:32
Fred Barbash-Moderator -  That a book about the 1920s and 1930s would have so much influence today--who could have predicted it. Who could have predicted that the policies of that era would   become so relevant 80 years later. Amity's book is "The Forgotten Man: A New History of the Great Depression"

It's a great read. It's also controversial. It's also become required reading for anyone involved in the debates today over the President's recovery programs. POLITICO's Andie Coller wrote about it this morning as follows:

"There aren’t any sex scenes or vampires, and it won’t help you lose weight.

But House Republicans are tearing through the pages of Amity Shlaes’ “The Forgotten Man” like soccer moms before book club night.

Shlaes’ 2007 take on the Great Depression questions the success of the New Deal and takes issue with the value of government intervention in a major economic crisis — red meat for a party hungry for empirical evidence that the Democrats’ spending plans won’t end the current recession.

“There aren’t many books that take a negative look at the New Deal,” explained Republican policy aide Mike Ference, whose boss, House Minority Whip Eric Cantor of Virginia, invited Shlaes to join a group of 20 or so other House Republicans for lunch earlier this year in his Capitol suite.

“Republicans are gobbling it up — and so are other lawmakers — because it tells you what they did, what worked and what didn’t.”

“It’s been suggested as required reading for all of us, I think,” said Erica Elliott, press secretary for Rep. Scott Garrett (R-N.J.) — who himself notes that his chief of staff “stole” his hardback copy, so he had to purchase a paperback.

Garrett said the book “is a good read” that details, among other things, “how FDR engaged in vitriolic demonizing of Wall Street and Big Business to advance his agenda.”

Also, he jokes, “it had good pictures when you get to the middle.”

It’s not hard to see what Republicans find compelling about the book. Shlaes, a columnist at Bloomberg, a senior fellow in economic history at the Council on Foreign Relations and a former editorial board member at The Wall Street Journal, presents a vision of the Great Depression that challenges the conventional wisdom that casts Herbert Hoover as a goat, FDR as a hero and the New Deal as the country’s salvation.

It also looks at the Great Depression with particular sympathy upon the plight of those who were burdened with supporting the “weak members of society” during the New Deal and endeavors to give a voice to those “forgotten men.”

To some, that voice sounds a lot like a rallying cry. Rep. Spencer Bachus (R-Ala.) quoted from the book’s epigraph during a recent news conference related to the mortgage cramdown bill, referencing William Graham Sumner’s definition of the “forgotten man”: “He works; he votes; generally, he prays — but he always pays.”  

“Now, the forgotten man today is the taxpayer,” Bachus said. “It’s discussed and it’s decided that we are going to help this individual or corporation out, we propose a law, and guess what, it’s the forgotten man today who always pays for someone else’s mistake. He pays his mortgage on time, but he has to pay someone else’s mortgage.”

 

 

Critics of the book, including economist Paul Krugman and historian Eric Rauchway, have challenged Shlaes’ use of data, noting, for example, that the unemployment statistics she uses do not count Works Progress Administration jobs. Shlaes defends her approach, arguing that make-work jobs are not evidence of economic growth and noting that President Barack Obama recently used the same data series she did in discussing unemployment during the Great Depression.

Others, such as Matthew Dallek, a fellow at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, have called her take “revisionist”; Shlaes said she is simply recounting what she found.

It’s clear, however, that she brings a certain perspective to her task. As she told Reason magazine in January: “The government is like a lobster. It will eat anything, it wants to survive, it will compete with anything, and it can be a cannibal. When you look back at the ’30s using the public choice lens, what you discover is the extent to which the Depression wasn’t about a virtuous government and bad businesspeople. Rather, it was about people in office competing with the private sector for power.”

Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa), who invited Shlaes to address the Conservative Opportunity Society earlier this year, uses words like “definitive” when referring to the tome, noting that Shlaes wrote it before the economic meltdown and that he read it “before we saw this even coming.”

“I think it’s conclusive when you read the book, although I don’t believe she said so, that the New Deal was actually a bad deal, and today we have a president who believes that the New Deal was a good deal, and would have been a far better deal if FDR would have spent a lot more money,” he said.

There is a danger, however, in extracting too much from Shlaes’ tale, which is meant to offer something of a corrective to the prevailing wisdom, not a replacement for it.

“Definitive isn’t the word I would use,” Shlaes said. “I just thought, ‘Maybe there’s more to the story, and if I find more, I’ll try to capture that in the book,’” she said. "

Here's a link to Andie's story.
2:35
Fred Barbash-Moderator -  Amity, who is also an Arena contributor,   will take your questions starting at 4, for approximately an hour. You may submit some in advance here now. Thanks for participating.
3:27
Fred Barbash-Moderator -  Here's a recent NYT article on the debate surrounding Amity's book:


April 4, 2009
New Deal Revisionism: Theories Collide

By PATRICIA COHEN
For more than half a century, America’s political leaders — Republican and Democrat — have sought to wrap themselves in the legacy of Franklin Delano Roosevelt, the man credited with replacing fear with hope and ending the Great Depression. But in recent years some writers and economists have been telling a version of this story that is quite different from the one generally taught in school or seen on the History Channel.

In this interpretation Roosevelt is a well-meaning but misguided dupe who not only prolonged the Depression but also exacerbated it. For many people, it’s like hearing that Little Red Riding Hood’s grandmother and not the wolf is the rapacious killer.

Since the financial crash this fall, the revisionist look at the Great Depression has attracted new attention; it even recently made its way onto Stephen Colbert’s television show. But more than that, it has become an intellectual banner for Republican opponents of the Obama administration’s ambitious bailout and stimulus proposals.

Amity Shlaes, a syndicated columnist who works at the Council on Foreign Relations, helped ignite this latest revisionist spurt with her 2007 book, “The Forgotten Man: A New History of the Great Depression.”

“The deepest problem was the intervention, the lack of faith in the marketplace,” she wrote, lumping Herbert Hoover and Roosevelt together as overzealous government meddlers.

The current financial crisis, as well as continuing praise from conservatives, helped propel the book back onto the Times best-seller list in November. Jonathan Alter, an editor at Newsweek and the author of “The Defining Moment: FDR’s Hundred Days and the Triumph of Hope” — which has also benefited from the renewed fascination with the 1930s — calls Ms. Shlaes’s book a “taste badge,” flaunted by Republicans looking for a way to oppose the administration.

This week competing theories about the Depression and the New Deal were once again on display at a conference at the Council on Foreign Relations’ New York headquarters, co-hosted by the Leonard N. Stern School of Business at New York University, and partly organized by Ms. Shlaes.

She and other critics of the New Deal credit Roosevelt with some important innovations, like restoring confidence in banks and establishing social insurance. Nonetheless, they argue that most of his mucking about in the economy crowded out private investment and antagonized the business world, and thus delayed recovery.

Unemployment remained high throughout the decade until World War II, Ms. Shlaes told conference attendees, because the uncertainty created by Roosevelt’s continual tinkering paralyzed private investors.

When the federal government keeps changing the rules, it’s like having Darth Vader in control, John H. Cochrane, a professor of finance at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, said during a panel. “I have changed the deal,” he intoned like Vader, the “Star Wars” villain. “Pray I don’t change it any further.”

Many of the economists who were invited to speak were similarly skeptical of the New Deal, even if they disagreed on the Depression’s causes. “No episode in American history has been so misinterpreted as the Great Depression,” declared Richard K. Vedder, an economist at Ohio University. By artificially keeping prices and wages high, he argued, both Hoover and Roosevelt prevented the economy from adjusting, which is why unemployment remained in double digits until the United States entered the war.

Anna Schwartz, who collaborated with Milton Friedman on a classic study of the Depression, and the Nobel Prize winner Robert E. Lucas Jr. argued that the idea of stimulating the economy with federal spending is a fairy tale. Government spending just crowds out private investment, they asserted; the money supply is the only thing that matters.

To Roosevelt’s defenders, the speaker list seemed stacked with attackers.

“I’m wound up here,” said Jeff Madrick, as he tried to cram in a wide-ranging defense of the New Deal during his brief remarks. Mr. Madrick, who directs policy research at the Schwartz Center for Economic Policy Analysis at the New School, pointed out that considering the deep pit the economy had fallen into during the Depression (when production fell by nearly one-third), the government’s deficit spending (just 5 percent of the gross domestic product) was actually quite modest. Even so, he said, it managed to reduce the official unemployment rate from a high of 25 percent in 1933 to just under 10 percent by 1936.

Nick Taylor, the author of “American-Made,” a history of the Works Progress Administration, said Roosevelt’s flurry of activity restored confidence. Not only did his administration rapidly create jobs for legions of jobless Americans, Mr. Taylor said, it also simultaneously built bridges, roads and dams, and brought light, electrical power and water to large swaths of the country. That 20th-century infrastructure laid the groundwork for the country’s phenomenal growth in the 1950s and ’60s.

Yes, unemployment bumped up in 1937, but it was caused by Roosevelt’s ill-advised attempt to balance the budget, he said. When Roosevelt reversed that policy, unemployment began to inch down again.

By the day’s end, Robert E. Rubin, who was secretary of the Treasury during the Clinton administration, mentioned that he was struck by “how vivid the discussion over the causes of the Depression is 80 years after it occurred,” though he also noted that “a lot of it is seen through ideological and political eyes — on both sides.”

At the final panel, a questioner asked at what point on the 1930s timeline is the United States right now. Economically we’re at 1930, Mr. Alter said, referring to the very start of the downturn, but politically we’re at 1933. Mr. Obama, he explained, “is following in F.D.R.’s footsteps,” moving quickly with significant government action to restore confidence and get the economy moving.

To Ms. Shlaes, the best analogy is 1937 — “the depression within the Depression” — when the unemployment rate shot back up to the middle and high teens after falling. “The economy wanted to recover,” she said, but the government’s interventions ended up paralyzing the business world.

Yet despite the abundance of analogies and lessons thrown out, some were cautious about drawing too close a link between then and now. The Depression was about 10 times as severe as what the nation is currently experiencing, with only 25 percent of the population working full time, they pointed out. In addition, there was no Social Security or unemployment insurance, and no federal deposit insurance.

To ask at what point on the 1930s timeline the United States is right now, Harold L. Cole, an economics professor at the University of Pennsylvania and a consultant to the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia, said with some exasperation, “really shows a misunderstanding of the severity of what went on there and the depths of the crisis.”

Mr. Vedder playfully offered another analogy: the recession of 1920. Why was that slump, over and done with by 1922, so much shorter than the following decade’s? Well, for starters, he said, President Woodrow Wilson suffered an incapacitating stroke at the end of 1919, while his successor, Warren G. Harding, universally considered one of the worst presidents in American history, preferred drinking, playing poker and golf, and womanizing, to governing. “So nothing happened,” Mr. Vedder said.

Of course Mr. Vedder does not wish ill health — or obliviousness — on any chief executive. Still, in his view, when you’re talking about government intervention in the economy, doing nothing is about the best you can hope for from any president.
3:28
Fred Barbash-Moderator -  Amity will be with us starting around 4. You can submit questions in advance if you like. And thanks for participating.
3:47
Fred Barbash-Moderator -  My apologies for the picture of Tom Ricks' book jacket...My bad. Nothing to do with Amity Shlaes but rather form our last author chat.
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